Live data from Hacker News

Iron fuel shows its mettle

spectrum.ieee.org

211–220 of 227 posts

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#211
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need seasonal storage. The sun still shines in the winter, unless you're in the Arctic circle. We can use over building, production diversity, interconnection and short term storage instead. Or just use natgas peakers for the last 1% and call a 99% solution good enough. If we had reasonably priced seasonal storage we'd use it, but we don't need it.

In winter cloudy conditions solar PV produces 10-15% power. Assuming some hydro storage, that's 4x overbuild. Not cost effective. Europe all gets winter at the same time. If you've got a cold snap for three weeks with low wind, the only plan is reliance on massive fossil fuel backup. The cost of keeping that capacity for only using a week a year isn't priced into solar either. The CO2-intensity of electricity generat…

> The cost of keeping that capacity for only using a week a year isn't priced into solar either.

Keeping gas power plants around for backup power isn’t all that expensive since fuel accounts for two thirds of their cost of generation.

Offshore wind is far more expensive than onshore wind and solar but even so costs about a third of new nuclear power, with strike prices in the UK of £37/MWh vs £106/MWh for Hinckley Point C. Maybe keeping gas backup adds another £15/MWh to that but it still works out at half the cost of nuclear.

By building more France will probably get nuclear costs down some, but even so will struggle to be competitive with renewables and backup.

> But yeah Germany's approach is really working!

Germany’s approach of keeping coal plants around while closing existing nuclear is extremely dumb.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#212

If I remember correctly, the process of recycling iron oxide into iron involves carbon monoxide and results in carbon dioxide, so, I’m not sure this would be as carbon neutral as they claim. There are other ways of course, but this is only for storage and recycling uses a lot of energy.

Iron oxide contains no carbon. So if there is any carbon monoxide forming that would have to come from somewhere else. Like the co2 in the atmosphere.

Nope, almost all of it comes from coal ("coke"). Well, unless you believe in the fossil theory of fuel.

See any textbook on the Bessemer process or iron decarburization

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#213
post #162
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why this is dead, but AFAIK magnetism in iron and steel is dependent on "domains" of iron molecules that are aligned in a crystal structure so the magnetic effect isn't just scattered to all directions. That's why some kinds of stainless steel aren't magnetic - the adulturant elements break up the crystal structure. In this case I think the question would be whether these particles are big enough to form a "…

If the output is iron oxide, no it is only very very weakly magnetic.

And if iron(III) oxide is near the melting point, it's unlikely to be magnetic and may not even be paramagnetic. This would be an interesting lab experiment: heat a sample to 1500 C exactly and test for paramagnetic properties.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#214
post #45
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions a HEPA filter.

That’s still a mess, if the particles are magnetic a magnet will be a way cleaner and more effective filter.

Unfortunately, you're mistaken. In practice, iron(iii) oxide is barely paramagnetic and the particles are likely well above the Curie point and possibly at the melting point.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#215
post #14

> 0.3% of the Iron-oxide becomes nanoparticles which cannot be converted back into Iron. At that rate, 50% of the initial iron will be gone in 333 cycles of iron -> iron oxide -> iron. This a hard type of energy source to reason about: 1. It's not a pure fuel and acts like a battery most of the time, but it's also not renewable 2. Iron is extremely abundant on Earth, but it requires mining and processing to extract 3…

Can't you just make pulsating/spinning magnet to capture it?

What half-bakery are you imagining? This won't work with blazing hot rust nanoparticles.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#216
> you could use renewable electricity to produce iron

Is there a known process to do this? At the moment most iron production is using coal.

Edit: Also, what about nitrogen oxides? Almost any combustion with air produces them to some degree and they are harmful pollutants. The article never mentions them.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#217

> “You can think of iron fuel as a clean, recyclable coal,” says Bergthorson. I was under the impression that basically all naturally found iron is in the form of iron oxide. Which means you first have to put in energy to reduce it to pure iron, to then burn it and turn it back to iron oxide. That's much closer to what a battery does, or hydrogen, than it is to coal. I imagine it's still useful in many applications s…

> iron oxide. Which means you first have to put in energy to reduce it to pure iron

And the article doesn't even hint at any way to do this using renewable energy. Which makes me suspect that no such process exists.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#218
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or rather, it’s not good enough for grid-scale requirements I disagree with this point. LFP batteries are cheap, high density, and have huge cycle life. The big drawback of LFPs is manufacturing is just starting to ramp up on them. That is, they aren’t available. LFPs just came out of patent protection last year and you are already starting to see them everywhere. The biggest problem with LFPs today is demand is ou…

Assuming LFP means Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)? Not sure how to reconcile "they aren't available" with "starting to see them everywhere". They're great batteries (especially compared to lead acid) and at least in small quantities, they have been widely available for years.

> at least in small quantities

This is specifically what I'm talking about. Because of some weird patent agreements, manufacturing of LFPs have been confined to China and they've not really been producing a large enough number of them to fill the role of grid storage (at least outside of china). [1]

[1] https://table.media/china/en/opinion/lfp-advantage-for-china...

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be reasonable here, mantle and nucleus iron don't matter to this analysis. Crust iron is all oxide. Fe at 5% average. In some locations obviously more concentrated up to 90% ore. Not all sites are viable for mining, and this is very important to understand. Just because there is plenty of iron out there doesn't mean all of it is commercial grade. This means energy input to turn iron oxide into iron, which the a…

The proposal is clearly for energy storage , not as a primary energy source . To that extent, it resembles other synfuel concepts. The principle difference being that iron-as-energy-storage entails reduction rather than synthesis , in the chemical sense, for hydrocarbon synfuels. There's a lot to be said for options which provide long-term, "shelf-stable", environmentally-benign, high-volume energy storage with conve…

The challenge of using synthesized chemicals for energy storage exists for quite some time indeed. For aviation and marine there may be no other option outside of synthetic fuels, I agree.

Can this scale up? Or is this a small scale only solution?

Transportation. How much energy would a truck be able to move? How does it compare to a tank truck? Weight is absolutely relevant here.

Also, production. Consider that reducing iron is measured by millions of tons per year per plant, and right now, it's done burning it with plain old coal.

Seems very odd to me the subtitle of the news is 'carbon free fuel'. That alone is a massive bullshit indicator, but I digress.

How something that may have a 10% global energy recovery efficiency could beat a pure redox power storage solution? This question has been avoided so far.

Post reply on HN