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$900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

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Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#161

Post by finitemonkey »

dheera wrote: post #117
jocaal wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if you take 300k home, the risk isn't that high. But the reward is insane.

To be realistic ... 300K in the bay is barely livable if you're targeting a middle class life with kids and targeting retiring at 65. First, ~46% of it is gone in taxes including federal tax (~25%), state tax (~8%), FICA (~4%), and sales tax on everything you eventually use the money for (~9%). So that's 162K left. Not a lot to pay sky-high rents, car payments, insane medical bills despite insurance, lawyers to fight…

You might want to check what the difference between mean and marginal tax rate is. For somebody with a lifestyle in which $162k a year is considered "barey livable" that should be sth very easy to understand.

>save up money for parental elderly care

Sorry, what? Your parents? I can see that paying for 3 generations on one income can be hard.

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#162

Post by BrandoElFollito »

dumbaccount123 wrote: post #121
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. I look at 900k$ and think wow from the perspective of my very well paid job in France. Getting 900k$ a year would bring great things to me and probably make me retire earlier. This will not be life-changing though. And then I think about people who earn 5% of what I do and for them multiplying their income by two would probably be truly life changing for them. And then these 900k$ do not look th…

Are you here to just brag? Also the dollar sign goes on the other side.

Brag about what? Please take a moment to read my comment with understanding.

And the dollar sign goes on the side I put it: nine hundred thousand dollars. The fact that you want to write $900k is just an idea specific to the finance world (such as using parentheses for negative numbers).

Do you usually write m4, in7 or lb9?

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#163

Post by Firmwarrior »

ben_w wrote: post #105
weaksauce wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is why billionaires are an indictment to our system.

Billionaires have a whole novel extra layer above this, as their taxable income and investment preferences can be significant for local (and sometimes national) governments. What's described here affects everyone, and is a reason to something something Gini coefficient. Someone on $1k/year can't afford for their $50 smartphone to get damaged or stolen; on $10k/year they can't afford for their fridge to break and thei…

I want to get to the point where I can pay $10k for a first class cubicle on international flights and show up well-rested instead of having to lose a whole day to feeling like crap

Or $50k to book a charter flight and just have my driver take me straight onto the tarmac, thus avoiding the airport entirely

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#164

Post by finitemonkey »

dheera wrote: post #137
tyingq wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but the median income for SFO is way below what tech people get paid. "barely livable" is perhaps a bridge too far for the $300k+ crowd. :)

> but the median income for SFO is way below Yes, it's a huge problem. There are greedy people buying more houses than they can use as investment vehicles, renting them out to everyone else who can't afford housing at unaffordable prices, and that ultimately increases prices across the board on everything because local businesses and service industry also need to rent commercial space and personal space -- and that u…

> Having roommates in late 30s out of necessity rather than choice

1. It's not as bad as you describe it. Not for tech workers, at least. Please go to the lady working at Walmart and ask her about her income and living arrangements before you rant about $300k a year.

2. Of course it's by choice. Nobody is forced to live in SF or the bay area. Especially not people in tech.

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#165

Post by ldjkfkdsjnv »

borroka wrote: post #138
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No even on a highly paid team of engineers making 250-400k, half of them are actively producing technical debt. One good engineer can replace 2, and then leave the code base simpler and more maintainable.

This seems like a broad generalization that has little support beyond -- perhaps -- the personal experience of the commenter, who, I suspect, considers themselves one of the "good engineers" and not one of the overpaid and decidedly less competent engineers, annoying producers of technical debt. Comments of this nature would be much more informative if were they to begin with "what I've seen is in my professional lif…

I've got over ten years experience, working in "highly regarded" tech companies. Most of the time, management is both incapable of recognizing who is truly writing the best code and politically their hands are tied in terms of firing half the team. This is why startups like OpenAI can take on companies like Google. I've seen dozens of products fail because engineers making 400k+ could not handle the complexity of some code base.

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#166

Post by dheera »

finitemonkey wrote: post #161
dheera wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be realistic ... 300K in the bay is barely livable if you're targeting a middle class life with kids and targeting retiring at 65. First, ~46% of it is gone in taxes including federal tax (~25%), state tax (~8%), FICA (~4%), and sales tax on everything you eventually use the money for (~9%). So that's 162K left. Not a lot to pay sky-high rents, car payments, insane medical bills despite insurance, lawyers to fight…

You might want to check what the difference between mean and marginal tax rate is. For somebody with a lifestyle in which $162k a year is considered "barey livable" that should be sth very easy to understand. >save up money for parental elderly care Sorry, what? Your parents? I can see that paying for 3 generations on one income can be hard.

> difference between mean and marginal

I was writing mean rates, not marignal.

For 300K in CA:

- marginal is 35% federal, 9.3% state, 2.35% FICA

- mean is 24.74% federal and 8.06% state, 4.79% FICA.

> I can see that paying for 3 generations on one income can be hard.

Yes, most working class people have to care for 3 generations. Parents being wealthy enough to take care of their own retirement expenses is a small, small number. Working class people in their middle ages choosing to not have kids is also a small number.

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#167

Post by dasil003 »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #66
borroka wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "real talent" is worth nx of the average salary when the work of the real talent makes the company better. If one (“talent") is a stellar runner, but when the team goes on a run the "talent" has to wait for their teammates to get to the finish line, most of whom go running once every two months, and the "talent" gets dress shoes instead of spikes etc., the "real talent" is worth, to the team or company, as much a…

No even on a highly paid team of engineers making 250-400k, half of them are actively producing technical debt. One good engineer can replace 2, and then leave the code base simpler and more maintainable.

You are correct in terms of raw talent. And I agree, there are a significant number of NNPPs in many teams who could be culled for a net increase in productivity.

However what this viewpoint doesn't account for are team dynamics. A strong TL can turn NNPPs into incremental positive contributors. A great programmer without leadership capabilities will not be able to outpace the technical debt. There are also more subtle dynamics depending on the structure and personality traits of the individuals. Ultimately programmer productivity is not an absolute value, it depends on the whole ecosystem (including other functions, leadership stance, etc). After doing this for 25 years (IC, TL, EM, CTO), I strongly believe a healthy team is about harnessing and orchestrating different individuals unique strengths rather than trying to set too high a bar—the latter will lead to counter-productive competition and ultimately burn out your best folks.

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#168

Post by imtringued »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #144
dheera wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be realistic ... 300K in the bay is barely livable if you're targeting a middle class life with kids and targeting retiring at 65. First, ~46% of it is gone in taxes including federal tax (~25%), state tax (~8%), FICA (~4%), and sales tax on everything you eventually use the money for (~9%). So that's 162K left. Not a lot to pay sky-high rents, car payments, insane medical bills despite insurance, lawyers to fight…

Yeah, take home of $13.5k a month can get a little tight if you're looking at an $8k mortgage on a crappy little shithole condo You surprisingly (considering you're making 5x the median household income for the US) end up having to lightly adhere to some sort of budget. With car payments, sending money to your family, and local inflated prices, it's easy to find yourself not saving enough for early retirement I think…

How do you find yourself not saving enough for early retirement when you are saving $8k per month? Only a a tiny fraction of your condo is being consumed within a month. Far less than 8k.

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#169

Post by BrandoElFollito »

kpw94 wrote: post #108
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. I look at 900k$ and think wow from the perspective of my very well paid job in France. Getting 900k$ a year would bring great things to me and probably make me retire earlier. This will not be life-changing though. And then I think about people who earn 5% of what I do and for them multiplying their income by two would probably be truly life changing for them. And then these 900k$ do not look th…

For people not living there but curious about trying it out: What's a reasonable range for "very well paid job in France"? Is it all cash or is there equity?

For a entry-level developer in a large French company you would aim a 50k€.

But this is just the bare salary - you will have to take off about 20-30% for various taxes. But then you get free healthcare and education, and retirement.

Some companies will have a bonus ("intéressement / participation") which can be an extra 10 to 20% once a year.

You would typically have a straight salary, no equity or something like that.

When you look at the most senior positions, this is about 130k€.

But it really depends on the city, on the industry etc. Generally speaking your salary is not that big, bt you have extra advantages (such as the social committee, a company-funded organization that will reimburse part of your vacation costs, give gifts at Christmas, ...)

Re: $900k Median Package for Engineers at OpenAI

#170

Post by umeshunni »

bugglebeetle wrote: post #139
nextworddev wrote: post #116

Unpopular opinion: OpenAI is severely underpaying these folks at 900k considering so many asset managers / PMs in finance basically hug S&P 500 and get 1.5m+

Yes, but this is just because tech industry people are far more susceptible to fantasies and bullshit than those in finance. In fact, they seem to largely enjoy the fantasies and bullshit, as this whole AGI rigamarole has shown. They’ll take a pay cut because the enjoy the make-believe over the cold, naked logic of market movements.

Another way to think about is that finance attracts people who care about money, tech does not.
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