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The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

novehiclesinthepark.com

871–880 of 1001 posts

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you missed the point entirely. The question was whether the scenario is a violation but the answers were not labeled accordingly. For an exercise that is, by it's own admission, pedantic by design that's a pretty glaring fault

Tell me you've never done (or thought about) content moderation without telling me you've never done or thought about content moderation. Rules are pedantic by their nature, that's the whole point of interpreting them.

You've missed the point of my comment too. We all agree that the exercise is pedantic by design, and that the goal of the exercise is to show how much variance there is in interpreting them.

The point, that you've missed twice now, is that the results are presented using incorrect language.

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#872
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the railway staff are indeed enforcing the spirit of the law by allowing mobility scooters on the platform. If I had to guess why your tricycle was not allowed it's because the staff perceive your tricycle as a potentially very fast moving obstacle on the platform which the mobility scooter obviously is not. They are probably more concerned about the safety of others than yourself when they apply that rul…

When visibly travelling at the same speed as pedestrians (… even when there are no pedestrians around!), and still insisting when you explain why dismounting is worse for everyone? No, it’s simply applying the rule because it’s a rule. The Protective Services Officers (cut-rate policemen) that are enforcing these sorts of rules are seldom interested in nuance. On another occasion I was fined by PSOs for walking along…

> The Protective Services Officers (cut-rate policemen) that are enforcing these sorts of rules are seldom interested in nuance.

I actually agree here, and I probably should have been more specific with what I said originally. When I said:

> the enforcement of the law will hew to the spirit that the text of the rule is being interpreted to have, by those charged with its enforcement.

What I meant was more that:

> when encountering novel situations that can't be easily interpreted using the text of the rule, the enforcement of the rule will hew to the inferred spirit of the rule, rather than robotically trying to apply some "fallthrough" case of the rule (e.g. by permitting any vehicle not explicitly listed.)

So, bylaw officers won't let you do recumbent-bicycle things if bicycles aren't allowed, because to them, a recumbent bicycle IS-A bicycle, and therefore is covered by the explicit text of the law — even if the spirit of the law would have made an exception for recumbent bicycles had it known. (This is the kind of situation where there's a point to petitioning to get the wording of the bylaw changed — when the "case law" of enforcement can't legitimately override the "legislation" of the rule, because it would seemingly go against the explicit text.)

But bylaw officers will allow a pedestrian scooter, because pedestrian scooters aren't explicitly addressed in the rule; nor do they have an IS-A relationship with anything that is addressed in the rule. So they have to actually use their brains to make a decision. And that decision will use common sense — a sibling comment referred to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischief_rule, and I think that's exactly the kind of common sense being used — to infer intent.

Or, to put that another way: enforcement won't interpolate the rule by inferring spirit, when making fine-grained distinctions when things "fall between" the lines of text in the rule; it will instead "snap" each case to the nearest explicitly-legislated-for case and then apply the text of the rule. But enforcement will often extrapolate the rule by inferring spirit, when judging situations that fall outside the "explicitly-ruled space" bounded by the explicit cases covered in the text.

(Why? From the perspective of the bylaw-enforcer: CYA. Your boss, or some enforcement auditor, could make a reasonable case that "you made the wrong call" by considering a recumbent bicycle to not be a bicycle, and punish you for it; and almost inevitably, given the way we divide responsibilities in our justice system, that "wrong call" will be "not writing a ticket." But nobody's going to punish you for "making the wrong call" on an entirely-novel case — instead, whatever call you did make will instead just become part of a body of case-law for interpreting the rule in the future.)

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#873
post #636
post #16

The number at the end is unclear - it says I agreed with the majority 11%, but then it shows a bunch of charts. Yet the three I said were vehicles (the car, the police vehicle, and the ambulance) are the only 3 above 50% support, so it seems I agreed with the majority 100%. I even opened a second session in another browser and hit yes to everything to see if the numbers in the chart was the amount that agree with me,…

The charts show your answer, and how popular is your answer, the bigger the more popular. The "majority 11%" means that 1/9 of your answers were above 50% (as you can see it on the charts).

What it appears to be actually calculating is that 1/9 of items had majority consensus that they were against the rule. It doesn't appear to take your actual selection into consideration, only the amount of questions answered

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#874
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you can academically wonder whether an orbiting space station is a vehicle and whether it's in the park, but the obvious intent of the sign couldn't be clearer. Cars/trucks/motorcycles aren't allowed, and obviously police and ambulances (and fire trucks) doing their jobs don't have to follow the sign. Now you're assuming the intent. The park could contain loose soil on the edge of a cliff, so any vehicle drivi…

>Now you're assuming the intent. That's true but without assuming intent you end up blindly following rules. Something struck me when first moved to UK from Turkey: Every rule in UK seemed to have an intent and that's why I think Turkey is full of rules which no one follows but in UK the rules are less numerous but followed. In Turkey, Turks like to think that the rules are not followed because the fines are too smal…

> Every human action is with an intent.

Not true, see sleepwalkers.

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#875
post #873
post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The charts show your answer, and how popular is your answer, the bigger the more popular. The "majority 11%" means that 1/9 of your answers were above 50% (as you can see it on the charts).

What it appears to be actually calculating is that 1/9 of items had majority consensus that they were against the rule. It doesn't appear to take your actual selection into consideration, only the amount of questions answered

You are right, the "all violate" and "all do violate" options both give 2/7 = 29% for the first 7, which is the majority opinion (car and ambulance violate, the others do not).

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#876

I'm fascinated by the fact that my takeaway is the precise opposite of what the author intended. To me, the answer to all of the questions was crystal-clear. Yes, you can academically wonder whether an orbiting space station is a vehicle and whether it's in the park, but the obvious intent of the sign couldn't be clearer. Cars/trucks/motorcycles aren't allowed, and obviously police and ambulances (and fire trucks) do…

> Yes, you can academically wonder whether an orbiting space station is a vehicle and whether it's in the park, but the obvious intent of the sign couldn't be clearer. Cars/trucks/motorcycles aren't allowed, and obviously police and ambulances (and fire trucks) doing their jobs don't have to follow the sign. Now you're assuming the intent. The park could contain loose soil on the edge of a cliff, so any vehicle drivi…

[dead]

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#877
post #634

I'm fascinated by the fact that my takeaway is the precise opposite of what the author intended. To me, the answer to all of the questions was crystal-clear. Yes, you can academically wonder whether an orbiting space station is a vehicle and whether it's in the park, but the obvious intent of the sign couldn't be clearer. Cars/trucks/motorcycles aren't allowed, and obviously police and ambulances (and fire trucks) do…

> So if this is supposed to be an example of how content moderation rules are unclear to follow, it's achieving precisely the opposite. Because you assume one following them does it out of good will and good intentions. Now imagine the moderator that needs to adhere to such rules doesn't use them as guideline but as something to work around to remove the things they personally don't like. And they don't need to expla…

This is a great take. I thought the author was only trying to demonstrate problems that occur when moderators act in good faith. Since the only forum I use is HN, I forget that plenty of moderators do not act in good faith.

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#879
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about common sense. Police/fire/ambulances are there for emergencies, their drivers have better training (theoretically) in safe driving, and the vehicles bring attention to themselves. Uncle Jim Bob trying to drive his Buick around is what's obviously prohibited as that's the vehicle/driver most likely to cause harm...

> Police/fire/ambulances are there for emergencies, their drivers have better training (theoretically) in safe driving, and the vehicles bring attention to themselves. By this logic, it’s ok for a police officer to drive through the park’s green on his way to work, with no emergency.

Except most jurisdictions have rules governing things like that.

Re: The rule says, “No vehicles in the park”

#880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don't agree on it, then the clarity you feel is an illusion. The point of rules is common understanding of what is acceptable. Notably, you pulled a bunch of special cases and refinements from thin air. The way I read the setup, it was "crystal clear" that the rule was violated by emergency services, even if we could agree afterwards not to enforce it there. And, yes, of course, moderation questions are muc…

I'm with the parent comment, as I think the context is important here. If you think the emergency service vehicles violate the rule, how about a park maintenance vehicle or a park ranger vehicle? Would you say "no vehicles in the park" rule applies to them too, so they would be violating it?

The whole exercise specifically asked us to ignore context, "common sense", etc. If we were supposed to consider an exception for park services, it would have been explicitly stated.

Of all the forums for an insistence on rigidly, literally following rules to make people's heads explode, HN is not exactly the most surprising, but it is one of the funniest.

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