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Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

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141–150 of 186 posts

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably not engineered or lab-adapted. Despite having a novel furin cleavage site in the exact location as stated in a grant proposal, a furin cleavage site that happens to make the virus extremely infectious towards humans all while leaving no trace of how it adapted this feature. This seems to me more like a desperate attempt to avoid any regulations or attention drawn to this reckless research conducted all ove…

A PRRA furin cleavage site that was a previously unknown sequence and not something that a scientist would have copied off some other virus.

But one that could definitely emerge via gain of function.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#142

> Some of the WIV's genetic engineering projects on coronaviruses involved techniques that could make it difficult to detect intentional changes. A 2017 dissertation by a WIV student showed that reverse genetic cloning techniques which are standard techniques used in advanced molecular laboratories left no traces of genetic modification of SARS-like coronaviruses. What practical, beneficial purpose would this serve?

It's a characteristic of a technique, it doesn't need to have a purpose. Not all things have a purpose.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unique furin cleavage sites are very common in coronaviruses (see below paper). In fact, one of the papers linked from the intercept article you posted even mentions HCoV-HKU1 which also has a unique furin cleavage site at s1/s2. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187350612... I found all of this in about 10 minutes of googling and 15 minutes of reading. Which means I’m as qualified to weigh in on the…

They are not common, and "10 minutes of googling" isn't going to get you anywhere. Read my link to the FOIA documents. There are many redacted, for "national security". Why would they be redacted for US national security if this came from a natural animal origin? It should at least give you pause to think. Possibly because the US was funding it via NIH grants to EcoHealth Alliance, which puts everyone in quite the bi…

> Why would they be redacted for US national security if this came from a natural animal origin?

Because US intelligence has an asset in the lab perhaps?

I've heard it said that intelligence briefings are often 90-95% what you can find in any newspaper (or website nowadays), but the last few percentage points use various 'assets and techniques' that the other side doesn't want to get out.

Often it's not about knowing the what of actions and events, but the why.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#145
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I wrote “lab leak theorists” I had in mind experts who think it was a leak. I was not thinking of kooks. I should have been more explicit. In general, I think it best for intelligence agencies not to write things to counter what looney people think. Such people can’t be convinced of anything that is contrary to their lunacy.

A public statement is for the public, kooks included, and when some of those kooks are political figures that makes it even more reasonable to make such a statement.

Apparently it was written with kooks in mind. I’d guess you are right in that they are writing for Congressmen. There are kooks there. Overall, I think it a bad idea for intelligence agencies to write public statements to combat nutty ideas (unless such ideas are held by Congressmen).

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#146
post #107
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so? This is inference from a bunch of connected but circumstantial evidence. Can someone explain to me what the harm is in this practice?

Speculate all you want, just don't make definitive claims using non-definitive evidence.

Ok…but why is that so important to you? I guess I am trying to understand the motivation behind people who are insisting on splitting hairs to downplay or denigrate the circumstantial evidence that points toward a lab leak.

I mean I can understand if there was an accidental lab leak of an engineered virus that killed millions was created in a Chinese lab with American tax dollars why those involved might want that information suppressed and to go away but why is it important to Klinky to take up that cause?

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They refused to believe in masks, As someone that believed in masks from the very beginning. The CDC and Fauci himself said masks were useless at the start of the pandemic. Stop being a pawn.

My understanding is that they said that as a path to avoid hoarding of N95 supplies which they knew were in short supply for those who most needed it at the time, medical professionals. That doesn't aren't right, precisely because it validates conspiracy minded people.

That's the explanation they came up with for why they were lying, but these people are self-admitted liars so why would you believe their lies any further?

If you are in charge of government and worried about mask availability, the right thing to do is pass laws seizing mask supplies. This is easy because they were almost all being imported from China anyway.

The worst possible thing to do would be to assert with 100% confidence that for scientific reasons masks don't work to the entire population including healthcare workers, and then later invert your position over night. Anyone who thinks this is a reasonable way to manage material logistics is clearly far too stupid to be in charge of anything, let alone critical government functions.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#148
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speculate all you want, just don't make definitive claims using non-definitive evidence.

Ok…but why is that so important to you? I guess I am trying to understand the motivation behind people who are insisting on splitting hairs to downplay or denigrate the circumstantial evidence that points toward a lab leak. I mean I can understand if there was an accidental lab leak of an engineered virus that killed millions was created in a Chinese lab with American tax dollars why those involved might want that in…

Regardless of the domain, questions of strength of evidence and strength of conclusions that can be drawn are of general interest to many.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#149

As a non-American, I find it frustrating how American partisanship hijacked this discussion. Forget Republicans and Democrats. A priori, a lab leak, at least accidental,.is a totally plausible hypothesis. Evidence is hard to find either way so who knows. But then these became shibboleths for American polarisation and you can't say "lab leak" without being labelled a white supremacist. I'm not saying it did or did not…

I agree with all that. But there is also the question: why should we care? What difference does it make now?

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#150

It’s sad this became so political with people. Total brain rot.

I don't even understand why it became political. What incentive do people on the left have to deny the obvious conclusion that it came from the lab?

> What incentive do people on the left have to deny the obvious conclusion that it came from the lab?

Huh, isn't that kind of obvious?

A big part of left wing ideology is progressivism, which is an exaltation of progress. The exact definition of progress changes over time, but the idea is at heart about having the most intelligent and specialized people being granted power to re-organize society for the greater good, as they see it. It is explicitly against the public making their own decisions in a decentralized way (neither via markets nor politicians), because it's assumed they're too stupid to do so with good outcomes.

Core to this worldview is the belief that there are such people as neutral experts, wise intellectuals, morally uncorrupted regulators and so on. You have to believe these people exist and in large numbers, otherwise the core progressivist project falls apart because who would be in charge of society? So the left are very keen on regulators, NGOs and especially "scientists", by which they don't mean corporate scientists but academics and government lab workers. They see in such people the core of the progressive project. Motivated by the greater good rather than self-centered profit, they deploy their superior skill and wisdom to make the world better.

So COVID comes along and it appears at first to be the perfect vehicle for validating the progressive project. Nature attacks, and who will defeat it? Not politicians or ordinary people! It will be the scientists and public health officials - but they say they can only do it if they're awarded total power over our lives, if politicians and markets are disposed of entirely and if we're all forced to act in concert (so we get collectivism as well as progressivism). Ideal!

The lab leak conspiracy turns this progressive dream into a nightmare. Suddenly the experts, the public health officials etc aren't the heroes of the story anymore, they're the villains. It turns a story about the virtues of progressive power into a story about how supposedly intelligent people killed millions through a foolish, careless and ultimately useless pursuit of abstract "progress" without regard to risks. And if they lied and covered up that then what else might they be lying about? How can anyone defend these people as superior leaders when they behave this way?

So depending on whether or not it came from a lab, the conclusions can switch from total validation of left wing goals to total repudiation. Of course they will never accept that it came from a lab leak.

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