These emails and related will be used for the upcoming wrongful death lawsuits to show negligence.
Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
31–40 of 93 posts
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Are you still unethical when you don't know about your incompetence? You're correct that reality can be more complicated, and it depends. I can imagine a scenario, e.g. the plot of "Manchester by the Sea" which doesn't seem completely unethical. I find it hard to believe in this case that he was that incompetent. I think he took what he believed to be a calculated risk, and I'm guessing he didn't go around broadcas…
They signed a waiver that mentioned the risk of "death" 3 times on the first page. I'd call that broadcasting. Edit: I mean just read the waiver: https://nypost.com/2023/06/23/read-the-death-waiver-doomed-t... It speaks for itself.
I think this is only partially true. Generally,
Risk = probability x severity.
From that link, they characterized the severity (death) but not the probability. Saying "you may die" is different from saying "your have a 50% chance of dying." My guess is nobody had a good estimate for the probability so nobody could have accurately communicated the risk.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Are you still unethical when you don't know about your incompetence? You're correct that reality can be more complicated, and it depends. I can imagine a scenario, e.g. the plot of "Manchester by the Sea" which doesn't seem completely unethical. I find it hard to believe in this case that he was that incompetent. I think he took what he believed to be a calculated risk, and I'm guessing he didn't go around broadcas…
They signed a waiver that mentioned the risk of "death" 3 times on the first page. I'd call that broadcasting. Edit: I mean just read the waiver: https://nypost.com/2023/06/23/read-the-death-waiver-doomed-t... It speaks for itself.
If you ever do anything "risky" you'll fill out a similar form. Go look into skydiver liability forms, they also mention the possibility of death or injury. I suspect most people embarking on expensive & risky adventures are used to these and based on previous adventures being alright just sign the paperwork without reading or thinking about it deeply.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#34When CEOs make statements like this I assume they know they are lying for sake of the company. What makes this more interesting is that he clearly believed it was safe. So he wasn’t necessarily unethical. It is more that he was a bad engineer and a poor judge of risk.
Not really. He thought it was safer than it was. But I don't think he thought it was close to a 0% chance of death. It's clear that he knew it was somewhat risky. It failed after like 25 dives which means around a ~4% failure rate. I'd hope he thought it had less than a 1% failure rate. Who knows what the true failure rate is. Maybe they got really lucky, and it actually had a higher failure rate. Maybe they got extr…
> I'd hope he thought it had less than a 1% failure rate.
1% is horrible. You'd hope for robust systems where individual failures are mitigated by support systems. And even then, five nines doesn't feel so great when the cost could be so severe.
> I just can't fathom people would pay $250k for a miserable time and a decent shot at death.
That poor kid didn't even want to go. He was terrified of the thing and was going to make his dad happy for father's day.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Are you still unethical when you don't know about your incompetence? You're correct that reality can be more complicated, and it depends. I can imagine a scenario, e.g. the plot of "Manchester by the Sea" which doesn't seem completely unethical. I find it hard to believe in this case that he was that incompetent. I think he took what he believed to be a calculated risk, and I'm guessing he didn't go around broadcas…
They signed a waiver that mentioned the risk of "death" 3 times on the first page. I'd call that broadcasting. Edit: I mean just read the waiver: https://nypost.com/2023/06/23/read-the-death-waiver-doomed-t... It speaks for itself.
I sign waivers that mention the risk of "serious injury or death" for my kids to play little league. People just see it as legalese.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#36An excerpt from an email Stockton Rush sent out, according to the article (emphasis mine): >I have grown tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation and new entrants from entering their small existing market. Since Guillermo and I started OceanGate we have heard the baseless cries of "you are going to kill someone" way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult. Just... wow.
A bet gone wrong.. Many innovations started off in a similar manner, ignoring or challenging the status quo..
That said, it's mighty spectacular and sad the way he was proven wrong.
rip.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd argue it's still unethical to put others at risk due to your own incompetence. I wouldn't offer to rewire someone's home because I'm not an electrician, and their house could burn down if I do it incorrectly.
> due to your own incompetence. Are you still unethical when you don't know about your incompetence? Can you be unethical if you had no ability to know that what you do is unethical?
He had actual experts telling him that this thing was unsafe. He fired people who said the thing was unsafe and that it wasn't ready for manned dives.
I would argue it is always unethical to ignore the advice of experts when putting other people's safety on the line.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#38I wonder, if his ghost could talk to us now, I’d he would have done anything differently. Maybe that seems like an absurd question to ask because... he’s dead. But his position seems to be: some things can never happen unless someone just risks it. And that math doesn’t really change with the knowledge “he dies”. It’s possible there are some alternative timelines out there where “he risks it and survives” and maybe t…
The sad thing is he's taking risks for no benefit. It's not like what he's doing is going to increase the body of knowledge or rescue some puppies trapped at the bottom of the sea. He's just taking stupid risks to run an expensive amusement park ride.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#39When CEOs make statements like this I assume they know they are lying for sake of the company. What makes this more interesting is that he clearly believed it was safe. So he wasn’t necessarily unethical. It is more that he was a bad engineer and a poor judge of risk.
Not really. He thought it was safer than it was. But I don't think he thought it was close to a 0% chance of death. It's clear that he knew it was somewhat risky. It failed after like 25 dives which means around a ~4% failure rate. I'd hope he thought it had less than a 1% failure rate. Who knows what the true failure rate is. Maybe they got really lucky, and it actually had a higher failure rate. Maybe they got extr…
> I just can't fathom people would pay $250k for a miserable time and a decent shot at death.
Rich folks pay upward of 70k for Everest expedition, where local personal Sherpas babysit them from basecamp/Kathmandu all the way to the top with oxygen, unless SHTF in some form. That's 2+ months of more or less suffering, living above 5000-6000m long term ain't fun for most. Metabolism goes to hell, wounds heal slower, body is clearly struggling and so is mind. I did experience empty mindness above 6k myself and you just focus on getting goals done asap and survival.
Everest has some 2-3% fatality rate, consistently. I'd say it may not be the exactly same crowd but similar mindset that gets attracted to these things.
Re: Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
#40I agree with the CEO generally but taking a submarine to the bottom of the ocean is not the right domain for this message.