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Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

theguardian.com

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Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re very wrong about the perception of doctors. According to polls, doctors are the 2nd most trusted profession. https://news.gallup.com/poll/388649/military-brass-judges-am... My wife runs the resident eduction for her division and they are very aware of the dangers of sending an incompetent doctor out into the world to practice. They’ll force them through extra training and make them repeat residency if they hav…

>You’re very wrong about the perception of doctors. According to polls, doctors are the 2nd most trusted profession. https://news.gallup.com/poll/388649/military-brass-judges-am ... https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/top-spenders?cy... They are the 4th largest briber in the US.

Fewer than 20% of physicians belong to the AMA, so that’s just an absurd statement. By that logic all old people are the 15th largest bribers.

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#92
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The punishment isn’t just the $5,000, it’s the public shaming that came with it. Both the fine and the public shaming are very light "punishments". Everyone's pointing and laughing now, but in a year nobody will even remember their name and their career will be fine.

local legal communities have long memories. they’ll be griefed about it at their retirement parties.

> local legal communities have long memories.

So does Google, and anyone researching these lawyers or this firm in the future...

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re very wrong about the perception of doctors. According to polls, doctors are the 2nd most trusted profession. https://news.gallup.com/poll/388649/military-brass-judges-am... My wife runs the resident eduction for her division and they are very aware of the dangers of sending an incompetent doctor out into the world to practice. They’ll force them through extra training and make them repeat residency if they hav…

>You’re very wrong about the perception of doctors. According to polls, doctors are the 2nd most trusted profession. https://news.gallup.com/poll/388649/military-brass-judges-am ... https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/top-spenders?cy... They are the 4th largest briber in the US.

Far be it from me to defend our system of lobbying the government, but there's a big difference between bribery and federal lobbying. Your phrasing poisons the well.

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#94
post #81
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to polls, doctors are the 2nd most trusted profession. n=1 anecdote here: When I was in research track biochem and bumped into premed students, nearly the entire population of premed didn't seem to care about the science behind what they were learning. They formed a very different social clique. The "top students" in that set were sharing previous years' organic chemistry exams and none of them would read…

From country where medschool is done by entrance exams the whole "premed" always sounded extremely weird and wasteful. They already have longest training time and then more is added on top?

Med school in those countries tends to last a year or 2 longer.

Also most other countries have national education programs for secondary school. High school in the US is regulated at the state and local level, so it’s very variable. As a consequence, the first 2 years of college tends towards general and education.

Another note, there’s also a med school entrance exam in the US.

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#95
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really know, but it might be okay for them to not focus on that knowledge.

Seems like we could train a lot of people for a lot cheaper if that was the case, though.

That’s essentially what Physicians Assistants and Nurse Practitioners are.

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#96
post #56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to polls, doctors are the 2nd most trusted profession. n=1 anecdote here: When I was in research track biochem and bumped into premed students, nearly the entire population of premed didn't seem to care about the science behind what they were learning. They formed a very different social clique. The "top students" in that set were sharing previous years' organic chemistry exams and none of them would read…

Studying for the test and taking easy classes, especially as premeds, has been a (likely accurate) stereotype of the medical profession since at least the 1970s & 80s.

I’m not sure how that’s any different than 90% of computer science students, or the average college student in general.

When I took non-required theoretical classes, I tended to be one of the only undergrads in the class

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#97

> Levidow, Levidow & Oberman said in a statement on Thursday that its lawyers “respectfully” disagreed with the court that they had acted in bad faith. “We made a good-faith mistake in failing to believe that a piece of technology could be making up cases out of whole cloth,” it said. Seems like they still don't get it. It's not good faith representation of your client, it's not good lawyering to interrogate a chatbo…

Are we all using the same definition of "good faith"? That just means to deal honestly and sincerely without any intent to defraud, deceive, or harm the other party.

I don't see any proof that shows they intended to deceive rather than that they were clueless.

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#98

It blows my mind that a lawyer would go through all the schooling and DEBT just to use ChatGPT and risk losing their BAR card. Sure, I see plenty of uses for ChatGPT in their field, but to not even check the output before submitting it is what blows my mind.

Everyone is piling onto you here, but another aspect is that many lawyers already don't do their own research, they use paralegals to do it for them.

With that information I think it's less mind-blowing, they were simply assuming ChatGPT could do the work of a paralegal

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#99
post #4

That should be a career-ending move, not a fine.

Why so eager to end someone's career? He did a lazy/stupid thing. People do far worse things. The client may want to sue them and seek damages or something and that'd be fair but I don't think their career should end. That's harsh.

Because to do otherwise is to normalize the use of false or non-existent information, whether due to bad faith, laziness, or gross ignorance, in processes where the outcomes may affect millions of dollars, thousands of people, or individuals' lives and freedoms.

Re: Two US lawyers fined for submitting fake court citations from ChatGPT

#100

LegalEagle did a video on this case two weeks ago, digging into it in some more depth: https://youtu.be/oqSYljRYDEM They lied to a judge, doubled down, showed further incompetence by admitting to not knowing how the legal reference they supposedly quoted was even structured, then lied to a judge again trying to get more time to get their story straight, and all it cost them was $5000? And even then they have the guts…

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