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Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

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Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#11

Post by mistrial9 »

acuozzo wrote: post #7

I thought that when the Intel Management Engine implementation details (hidden Minix!) were released that it would only be a matter of time for a "Full FOSS" movement within enthusiast communities. I was wrong, it seems. There hasn't even been a push for an affordable 802.3ab gigabit ethernet card with an FPGA.

its not a democracy -- you discovered the implementation that is convenient to the towers of executive authority; there is no change just because it is more widely known, in fact, increased boldness in tracking activity in real-time and building dossiers on users for "ads" is growing, along with the stockpile of money available to implement that.

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#12

Post by colineartheta »

samtho wrote: post #5

One long-term project I’m planning is actually a fully open source desktop computing platform. While originally meant as a learning project, I realized a few years ago Ben Eater[0] has done this in a way far superior to anything I could create myself, so I started focusing on very basic hardware, beginning with power supplies. My goal ultimately is to select a processor that is as close to open source as possible, de…

Does the Talos II not fit this already?

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#13

Post by imiric »

mikewarot wrote: post #6

Here's a Usenix presentation by the last author, Timothy Roscoe, from August, 2021 on YouTube. [1] He makes a very compelling case for greatly expanding the concept of an operating system into all of the hardware in a given computing environment. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36myc8wQhLo

> He makes a very compelling case for greatly expanding the concept of an operating system into all of the hardware in a given computing environment.

I haven't watched the presentation, and just glanced at the paper, but while I see how this would be an improvement, I'm not sure if giving operating systems all that power would be an absolutely good idea.

While I certainly don't trust the firmware that runs on my devices, in most cases it's self-contained to the device itself. Modern operating systems are themselves a dumpster fire of security issues and spyware, built by corporations who realized they can also profit from their user's data, and they take advantage of that in subtle and nefarious ways. Even Linux distros aren't safe, and users need to be under constant vigilance that the software they're running isn't actively tracking or exfiltrating their data. These are much larger and widespread threats than any ones caused by firmware.

I think the solution must involve a radical simplification of hardware, and a migration towards open source platforms. RISC-V looks very promising in this regard, and, coupled with a reasonably secure OS, is the best path towards safer computing.

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#14

Post by jpleger »

I think one of the primary reasons that it is such a dumpster fire is there traditionally hasn't been an "open" ecosystem in the hardware world, though now they are being forced towards that direction kicking and screaming.

Every part of the hardware ecosystem has traditionally been done in closed, NDA ridden environments and only over the last 5-10 years has that even started to change.

Designing chips has required NDA-based PDKs. Designing complex PCBs has required closed-source EDA tools. Interacting with any of the IC peripherals often requires binary or non-redistributable firmware.

Hell, even with the modern "open" switch architectures, like Trident3, you can't get software or detailed datasheets from broadcom without an NDA. Same thing with some of the ARM based stuff like with the Raspberry Pi.

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#15

Post by dclowd9901 »

nightowl_games wrote: post #9

I like the boldness of the title and the simple clarity of the writing. Academic papers are frustrating to me in that they seem to use esoteric language in order to create a veneer of importance, sometimes above trivial real content. This stands against that trend and harkens back to papers of old.

I know it’s probably asking too much but I wonder what the world would look like if academic papers were actually fun to read.

Brian Greene is probably considered a pariah around here but I really enjoyed reading his book The Elegant Universe.

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#16

Post by derefr »

Are vertically-integrated SoCs (Apple Silicon, NVIDIA Tegra, etc.) subject to the “OS only controls part of the hardware” problem?

I always figured that in these systems, there would be power-efficiency and BOM-cost pressure to “de-vendor” the SoC by replicating IP-core functionality with logic merged into firmware or a few larger service cores — or even kernel daemons run on the efficiency cores of the application processor. I would expect e.g. the fan controllers on these systems to be a part of the PCH’s event-loop logic, rather than its own little microcontroller with its own little firmware.

If this doesn’t happen—why doesn’t it?

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#17

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

jpleger wrote: post #14

I think one of the primary reasons that it is such a dumpster fire is there traditionally hasn't been an "open" ecosystem in the hardware world, though now they are being forced towards that direction kicking and screaming. Every part of the hardware ecosystem has traditionally been done in closed, NDA ridden environments and only over the last 5-10 years has that even started to change. Designing chips has required…

Most electrical components have traditionally had open datasheets. It is only a relatively recent phenomenon that mass market ICs are locked behind NDAs.

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#18

Post by ForOldHack »

imiric wrote: post #13
mikewarot wrote: post #6

Here's a Usenix presentation by the last author, Timothy Roscoe, from August, 2021 on YouTube. [1] He makes a very compelling case for greatly expanding the concept of an operating system into all of the hardware in a given computing environment. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36myc8wQhLo

> He makes a very compelling case for greatly expanding the concept of an operating system into all of the hardware in a given computing environment. I haven't watched the presentation, and just glanced at the paper, but while I see how this would be an improvement, I'm not sure if giving operating systems all that power would be an absolutely good idea. While I certainly don't trust the firmware that runs on my devi…

"Dumpster fire?" You are too kind. It's a cesspool, and a leaky one a that. Mostly Microsoft fault, and it has been now known to be getting worse.

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#19

Post by stavros »

jpleger wrote: post #14

I think one of the primary reasons that it is such a dumpster fire is there traditionally hasn't been an "open" ecosystem in the hardware world, though now they are being forced towards that direction kicking and screaming. Every part of the hardware ecosystem has traditionally been done in closed, NDA ridden environments and only over the last 5-10 years has that even started to change. Designing chips has required…

What forces them toward an open ecosystem?

Re: Putting out the hardware dumpster fire

#20

Post by sitzkrieg »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #17
jpleger wrote: post #14

I think one of the primary reasons that it is such a dumpster fire is there traditionally hasn't been an "open" ecosystem in the hardware world, though now they are being forced towards that direction kicking and screaming. Every part of the hardware ecosystem has traditionally been done in closed, NDA ridden environments and only over the last 5-10 years has that even started to change. Designing chips has required…

Most electrical components have traditionally had open datasheets. It is only a relatively recent phenomenon that mass market ICs are locked behind NDAs.

i only hit NDA on secure element chips and similar things. 99% of my embedding work is plain ol mcus w reams of datasheets available. i do not do pc stuff tho
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