Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

thecodist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 263 posts

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#191

Post by ajross »

spinlock wrote: post #165

Here's my problem with people who put in 80 hours a week: they don't write good code. At my first job - way back in the last millenium - we were creating a carrier class network device. I was hired to run the mail servers but ended up building an embedded linux that ran the PowerPC on our hardware - we also had a Strong ARM that ran a gig ethernet but that was under another guy. So, how did I go from mail server to a…

Honestly that anecdote just proves that you were a better engineer than the 60 hour boot loader guy. It doesn't say anything about hours other than that some people will work hard even if they aren't making progress. You aren't claiming that he'd have done better by spending only 2/3 the time, just that a solution (that he couldn't find) existed that fit.

Honestly I find myself amused at the extent of the argument here. Most people I've known in the tech world who work long hours generally do so because ... they like it. It's a way to define your life. It's a way to feel good about yourself. I'm sure there are programmers trapped in death march dungeons somewhere for exploitative wages, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#192

Post by batista »

Tichy wrote: post #151
batista wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't read all of what you wrote, just one question: if there is freedom of contract, why wouldn't an employee be free to negotiate a contract that can't be cancelled on short notice? Because the power is on the side of the guy giving the job, not on the guy having to pay mortgage and feed a family with two kids. Sought after, rock-start, "I'll shop around", programmers are by definition few and far between. And eve…

What if the guy giving the job has a mortgage and a family, too? I think what you say is a sweeping generalization.

What if the guy giving the job has a mortgage and a family, too? I think what you say is a sweeping generalization.

Yes, but generalization is good. It's seeing what happens in MOST cases.

For one, if you can't sustain a competent business WITHOUT exploiting unpaid overtime, then you don't get to have one. Many failing businesses would be highly profitable if we allowed slave labor but we don't allow that either.

If it provides a competitive advantage to exploit unpaid overtime, regulate it to death so it's not an option anymore. And if it happens elsewhere, import-tax-it or embargo it to death, as you would child and slave labour.

Second, most companies have tens to thousands of employees. So the "guy giving the job" is not a guy, but a private or public owned entity. Far ahead of the negotiating power of the employee. And the guy deciding the "unpaid overtime", is more often than not the one with golden parachute and salary in the upper six or seven figures. So spare the melodrama for them.

You won't find many modern countries were concern over the guy "giving the job" trumps concern over the millions who have to accept a job.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#193

Post by gph »

larrys wrote: post #184
gph wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, came here to say this. I'm not happy about it. But there isn't much I can do right now, I'm fairly confident I'd be let go if I point blank refused to do any OT. I'm unfortunately in a very expendable position at my company.

You don't have to refuse to do overtime. Just take a comparable amount of time off. One of the things about salary vs. hourly is (at least the way I used to treat it as an employer) is that a salary employee could take off in the morning for a doctors appointment and they still received the same pay. Or for actually anything. Not so with hourly. Although a passive aggressive way to equalize the situation, it might ma…

I wouldn't mind doing OT if my company treated it like that.

Unfortunately, if I'm not at work anytime between 8AM-5PM, it's going to go down as either sick or vacation/holiday. No free time around here.

But I understand this isn't the norm, I know my company is in the extreme bad side of this debate.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#194

Post by snprbob86 »

spinlock wrote: post #167
snprbob86 wrote: post #10

When I worked for a big company, I had a very simple rule: If I make a promise to my team that I can reasonably keep, I owe it to them to do so. I'd generally aim to under-promise and over-deliver, while feeling like I'm making a comprable (or bigger!) contribution in comparison to my peers. After some practice at this, I got reasonably good at estimating work. I'd work 20 to 50 hours per week depending on how accura…

It's too bad you couldn't openly tell your team how you were scheduling your time. It sounds like you developed a very good, consistent process. In my mind, that's exactly what a large company should be going for because it can scale.

I did tell them! See where I wrote:

> I made it a point to explain this philosophy (sans actual target hours) to every manager I've ever had.

I simply didn't tell my manager exactly how many hours I targeted because it was less than the customary 40h/wk.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#195

Post by forcefsck »

dodedo wrote: post #121
neutronicus wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an asymmetry here: I want to see the exchange as money for time, because my work is not valuable to me (I don't get to keep the product!), but my time is. I want an upper bound on how much of the resource that's valuable to me that the company is entitled to in exchange for their money. The employer wants to see the exchange as money for work, because they couldn't care less how the work gets done. They want…

And a difference of opinion: I want to see the exchange as work for time, because I work much more effectively than many other people. An hourly-rate job is simply not attractive to me, because the hourly-rate will not effectively capture my value. As explained by grellas above, overtime in the US is typically applied to replaceable workers who's hourly value is a more or less quantifiable resource. If I'm flipping b…

> I want to see the exchange as work for time, because I work much more effectively than many other people. An hourly-rate job is simply not attractive to me, because the hourly-rate will not effectively capture my value.

Why not? If you provide better value per hour than others, you should also get higher hourly rate. If you just work more hours without more compensation, then you're just cheap.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#196

Post by theBobMcCormick »

ootachi wrote: post #147
dpritchett wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine the only time you'd see an economic rationale for systematically overworking your team would be in a moon shot / burn the ships scenario, neither of which seems necessary for a service company. Perhaps if the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow was a buyout in the tens of millions you'd be tempted as a part owner. Even then the front-line employees being whipped would be unlikely to get a significant pi…

Long hours are the key to profitability, as Philip Greenspun put it: "From a business point of view, long hours by programmers are a key to profitability. A programmer probably needs to spend 25 hours per week...Thus a programmer who works 55 hours per week is twice as productive as one who works 40 hours per week.... A product is going to get out the door much faster if it is built by 4 people working 70-hour weeks…

> "If you see one of your best people walking out the door at 6:00 pm, try to think why you haven't challenged that person with an interesting project. If you see one of your average programmers walking out the door at 6:00 pm, recognize that this person is not developing into a good programmer."

Wow! What a horribly shitty attitude. If your "average programmer" isn't spending their every waking moment at work they're not a good programmer?!? Employers with attitudes like that deserve a serious atomic kick in the balls.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#197

Post by j_baker »

spinlock wrote: post #165

Here's my problem with people who put in 80 hours a week: they don't write good code. At my first job - way back in the last millenium - we were creating a carrier class network device. I was hired to run the mail servers but ended up building an embedded linux that ran the PowerPC on our hardware - we also had a Strong ARM that ran a gig ethernet but that was under another guy. So, how did I go from mail server to a…

I agree with you on this one. Working long overtime doesn't just make you unhappy, it isn't productive either (although I certainly have to grant that it's necessary sometimes). The biggest problem is that it tends to become self-sustaining. You're overworked, so you code something poorly. Then, next time you work with that code, you have to work harder because it's so poorly written.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#198

Post by cunac »

x5315 wrote: post #51
dinkumthinkum wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if it is something you actually want to be doing then that is one thing. But, I bet you are not married and have kids or if you do, they may not be as happy with you as you might think. It's just reality. As for the Steve Jobs thing, yes I get that. But it's one thing to be Steve Jobs and have this legacy that they make documentaries about and it's another to have just been a cog, even if it's a popular compan…

I feel like you've got a little over-dramatic here. Firstly, i'm not married nor do i have children. Secondly, these things will come, in time . I find it discouraging that you feel that one can't take pride or enjoy work while being "a cog". This isn't about 'everlasting glory'; it's about enjoyment, it's about fun, it's about being proud about what you've created and owning it, it's about respect from your peers, i…

why don't you work for free then ? It should give you same sense of fulfillment and company will benefit even more. :-)

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#199

Post by praptak »

thurn wrote: post #3

You should be paid to do a fixed amount of work (generate a certain amount of value for your employer), not work a fixed number of hours. If you can get that work done in 10 hours a week, everybody wins. If you need to work 70 hours a week to do that work, well, maybe you're not a good fit for the job.

I haven't heard of a company that lets you idle even if you produce an average employee's week output in a day.

The 'fixed amount of work' only works one way. You need 70 h to do it? Stay long hours. You did it in 20 hours? Well great, we'll just pile more work on you.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#200

Post by campnic »

tptacek wrote: post #166
ootachi wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long hours are the key to profitability, as Philip Greenspun put it: "From a business point of view, long hours by programmers are a key to profitability. A programmer probably needs to spend 25 hours per week...Thus a programmer who works 55 hours per week is twice as productive as one who works 40 hours per week.... A product is going to get out the door much faster if it is built by 4 people working 70-hour weeks…

Greenspun wrote that about a software consulting business, too. Think about what else has to be going wrong with a consultancy for it to make sense for people to work 70 hour weeks. Hint: serious clients pay in 40-hour person/week increments. Anyways, it's undeniable that there's a pervasive culture of 60-80 hour work weeks in tech companies. I think it's bullshit; I think it's bad for the employers, who get substand…

I was going to write up some big rebuttal but I realize now we are arguing from very similar positions.

1.) Developers don't understand what they are worth 2.) The culture of 50+ h/week working is pervasive

I think the point where we disagree is about the optimal behavior from the companies POV. Based on the exclusivity of existing condition eligible health care and collaboration by major tech firms to illegally collude to prevent competition for work, I don't conclude that it is a system which will fix itself. However, the only viable solutions I can imagine would be unpalatable to too many programmers to be enacted.

Post reply on HN