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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

phoronix.com

301–310 of 387 posts

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#301
post #242
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a part of the US where "guys" is used as a gender neutral collective noun. My mom and grandma would call out "guys, dinner is ready!" to the whole family to call us to the table for example. So it's definitely whiplash inducing for the same group of people preaching inclusion and tolerance, and how we need to accept regional and racial dialects in the workplace, to then turn around and implement slackbots th…

I work in Japan - naturally I've Japanese colleagues, and a significant number from other Asian countries too. The "you guys"/"hey guys"/"that guy" thing is practically universal. The idea of a native (probably white) English speaker lecturing them on it being sexist or non-inclusive is repugnant to the extreme. At that point they've lost the argument, and can frankly get fucked.

To what Japanese phrases are you referring? Most of the various phrases I'd expect to use to refer to a group (minasan, [name]-san-tachi) are gendered at all in typical use, and the ones I can think of that are gender only one member of the group (e.g. kanojo-tachi to refer to a group including one known female).

And it's not like Japanese doesn't have similar sexist norms baked into its own vocabulary either (if anything, to a rather greater extent than English). No, an everyday modern speaker probably doesn't mean anything by the fact that it's danna-sama but oyome-san, or the fact that formal speech (as one would use with a superior) is read as feminine-coded in casual contexts. But that doesn't mean there's not something behind those norms, either.

Whether the lecture is counterproductive is an entirely different question to whether the usage is sexist.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#302
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without this line, you could directly email everything the CoC bans (e.g. violent threats) to any contributor, and the CoC wouldn't give the community the right to ban you. It should probably be reworded in a way that makes this purpose more clear, but it shouldn't be removed entirely.

And how would banning the contributor help prevent such messages? That's a topic for law enforcement.

It increases the cost of overstepping in private messages, which would help prevent them. It decreases the likelihood of future private messages, since the offending contributor will no longer work together with other people from the project. It gives their targets a chance to continue working on the project without having to work together with that person. Why do you think it wouldn't help in any way?

And please don't be difficult by choice. As I wrote, it's not just about threats, but also about a host of other things (discrimination, sexually explicit/violent material, doxxing, personal insults, unwelcoming sexual attention, advocation for any of the beforementioned behavior, repeated harassment). Not everything is something you would approach the police over, but it's all stuff you don't want to be subject to because you contribute to an open source project.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#303
post #294
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't that the problem? The problem is that the specific phrase "Code of Conduct" has been dragged into a culture war. And if the problem is the parlance, the solution is to just call it something different, like "Conduct Policy", "Rules", or something similar. It might seem trite, but in my experience using a different name seems to shut off the part of some folks brain who automatically assume said rules will be…

Your assertion here that a code of conduct could get dragged into a culture war directly contradicts your previous assertion that there is no war outside of HN. Rules getting enforced in bad faith as people coalesce power in their sphere is a story as old as human history. Why would you argue that we have an exception in this case?

> Your assertion here that a code of conduct could get dragged into a culture war directly contradicts your previous assertion that there is no war outside of HN.

Whoops, ya got me! :)

In all seriousness, there's no contradiction. The phrase "Code of Conduct" was part of a culture war, but in my experience the conversation outside of places like Hacker News has shifted significantly in recent years. Reading this thread was like stepping into a time machine, and not in a pleasant or nostalgic way.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when I was in middle school (2004-ish?), I collaborated on a video game development project with four other dudes I met online, two of whom I became close friends with. we all knew the project leader was Australian because he told us as much, because he insisted we spell "armour" with a "u", and because of the times of day he was online. it was easy to infer that the rest of us were North American, but it wasn't unti…

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wow—that's a lot to read into just a single word!

> It sounds like arrogance, group-think, and a lack of empathy for outsiders was pretty much at the heart of your cyber-libertarian dream utopia.

that sure is one way to characterize being a lonely teen who discovered a feeling of belonging in an emergently developing meta-culture set in an incredibly diverse environment of digital creativity, inspiration, and hope for the future, that anyone could feel like they belonged in if only they lurked for awhile to acclimate to the social norms of whichever communities seemed interesting to explore—only to watch it all turn into a shit garbage nonstop 24/7 orgy of pot-stirring clickbait, endless screeching about identity politics, opportunistic social posturing and grifting, and just general daily misery, all funneled right into the palm of your hand, ready for you to scroll through and get agitated about whatever the fuck latest nonsense thing is going on elsewhere in the world—and then when you're done with that, swipe your thumb a few more times, and easily access a dozen more endless feeds containing the same digital excrement, just with different seasonings.

"normies" got thrown into being online 24/7 way too fast, before anyone could acclimate to the cultural norms that had already been established there, such that said cultural norms were immediately supplanted by a deluge of what was essentially mass immigration from a foreign, incompatible culture. and it wasn't even their fault, really, it was the corporations who were overly eager to usher in the New Age of Everyone Being Online At All Times, So As To Market More Things To More People.

> It was just comfortable _for you_ because in that utopia, you had power.

were you there for the Old Times? or do you genuinely know no other Internet than today's grotesque hellscape? because that's kind of what it sounds like.

if I had any "power", it was the power to create, share, and consume creative content in a way mankind had never thought possible before—contrast this with today's Internet, in which 99.9% of users only engage in consumption, and not just any consumption, but consumption of the highest-bandwidth, lowest-effort, most-brain-cell-killing kind. if you call this "power", then you can hardly claim I was alone in having it, or that some identity/demographic property permitted me access to it—desktop computers were cheap and popular, and pretty much every household had one. anyone with the requisite curiosity and either patience to lurk or humility to be told to lurk could find something to enjoy, no matter what their interests were.

there were no endless social feeds to scroll through just to intentionally read things that make you angry for political reasons because they were engineered to do exactly that, no highly centralized websites where everyone could yell at each other online—it was all smaller communities, like this one, with their own value systems, social norms, and so forth. it was good times.

> But let's not kid ourselves that it was somehow free from all the failings of normal human society.

this is why I asked if you were there at the time, because this sounds like the perspective of someone who either was not, or has since forgotten how much things have changed in such a short period of time—the Internet and the Real World used to be different things, not long ago at all, and everyone used to understand that. you used to have to sit down at a computer in order to interact with the Internet, and it was like jacking into the Matrix—when you logged off, you were back in the real world. that doesn't happen anymore, because even if you log off, everyone around you hasn't—if not physically then at least mentally.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but from what I remember they would seek out every possible opportunity in every single possible open source community they could find and propose the CoC that they wrote. 0 contributions to the projects, with the exception of demanding that people implement incredibly verbose CoC's in their projects under the guise of "protecting the minorities contributing to the projects". Most infamous instance is pro…

It was pretty funny when she shook down the venerable SQLite project, and they responded by adopting the Rule of Saint Benedict. (They later capitulated.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

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Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#306

This CoC is fine as far as it goes (unlike a certain copypasta CoC that was being spread years ago). However, the real gold is in the GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [0] that is linked to at the bottom, which has existed for years (published 2018, updated 2022). I wish they would have just merge the two documents instead of incorporating by reference. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.en.html

The GNU one seems really great tbh. Like, actually useful advice about communication and conflict resolution and emotional intelligence, instead of barebones rules.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#307
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can welcome trans people to your project, or transphobes, but not necessarily both. You don't need to "welcome" either. You just don't talk about that stuff because it has zero relevance to your project, unless you're trying to use it as a political statement (which technical projects shouldn't be at all.)

You’re essentially proposing to do nothing and have faith that everyone will get along and that everyone will feel comfortable contributing. It’s a nice idea, but it tends not to work in practice. Left to their own devices, people will talk about things that aren’t directly related to the project. How would you propose to stop them if not by enforcing certain conduct rules? You’re effectively just advocating for a di…

Those who try to inject politics, especially identity politics, where it doesn't belong should simply be ignored. As the saying goes, "don't feed the trolls".

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about things they do on twitter? or if they walk with unpalatable(to some) slogans down the times square?

We don't have rules for that

But the GCC CoC has a rule for that too (for stuff outside of GCC related communications channels).

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#309
post #42
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deadlocks uh, i might be out of the loop, what's wrong with the word "deadlock" now ?

Perhaps the dead part which is the trigger for some? I've read recently that phrase unalive is being used as substitute of various dead, suicide related words, to avoid being auto-censored or demonetized in the social media - but that's a bit different thing, innit

Somebody decided that the word "master" is bad enough to become taboo, so the same thing happening to "dead" is not particularly far-fetched.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After a brief Google search, I think you're referring to Coraline Ada Ehmke, but I can't find anything problematic about her, what she's said, or her goals — unless you're referring to the fact that she's transgender and cares about social justice. Is that why you're being deliberately vague? Would you mind elaborating instead of vagueposting? What are your specific concerns? What is "extremely objectively poor" abou…

Not the OP, but from what I remember they would seek out every possible opportunity in every single possible open source community they could find and propose the CoC that they wrote. 0 contributions to the projects, with the exception of demanding that people implement incredibly verbose CoC's in their projects under the guise of "protecting the minorities contributing to the projects". Most infamous instance is pro…

That is an extreme case, but some people are just naturally attention-seeking trolls. The right thing to do is to ignore them.
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