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Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

thecodist.com

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Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#121

Post by dodedo »

neutronicus wrote: post #83
mseebach wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I agree with the point made in another comment about this not being so much about overtime, but about crap jobs. But: > the deal is an exchange of money for time It's not really, no. It's an exchange of work for time. If you're doing an exchange of time, you'll be punching in and out, and the boss worrying about your "butt in seat" productivity metric is reasonable. It doesn't necessarily follow that you should w…

There's an asymmetry here: I want to see the exchange as money for time, because my work is not valuable to me (I don't get to keep the product!), but my time is. I want an upper bound on how much of the resource that's valuable to me that the company is entitled to in exchange for their money. The employer wants to see the exchange as money for work, because they couldn't care less how the work gets done. They want…

And a difference of opinion:

I want to see the exchange as work for time, because I work much more effectively than many other people. An hourly-rate job is simply not attractive to me, because the hourly-rate will not effectively capture my value.

As explained by grellas above, overtime in the US is typically applied to replaceable workers who's hourly value is a more or less quantifiable resource. If I'm flipping burgers, painting a house, or banging out simple webapps based on someone else's design then it's fairly easy to quantify the value of my time.

However, if I'm working in an industry where force multipliers abound, for example software engineering, or any sufficiently advanced executive/management position, I would much rather capture the value of what I produce -- there simply cannot be a good fit with shoehorning me into an hourly value rate. It simply isn't an accurate way to represent my value.

This is best exemplified by jobs which supply equity stakes. If you give me a chunk of your company I'm no longer working for free, when I work overtime.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#122

Post by pilom »

orblivion wrote: post #94
urbanjunkie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't believe that most such employees see their work as "slavery" when they have to work excessive hours. I think they see it as career development" That made me laugh. "Top executives" typically have compensation packages that, to some degree, directly tie their compensation to the overall company performance. Thus, the harder they work, the more likely it is that the company will perform to or above expectation…

Would they keep their job if they refused to work more than 40 hours? Is there a 40 hour a week job out there that pays and furthers their career comperably? If not, I don't know what to call it other than career development.

"Is there a 40 hour a week job out there that pays and furthers their career comparably?"

The defense industry in the US is like this. It is illegal for a company to have employees work more that 40 hours a week without overtime pay. The rationale is:

If Company A has a company culture of all employees working 60 hours a week and Company B has a corporate culture of working 40 hours a week, Company A could charge the government less for the same amount of work and thus would win more contracts. The government recognized this would create an customer incentive for companies to "encourage" their employees to work longer hours. So the government made a law that Defense contractor employees must be paid overtime for any hours more than 40 per week. And in my experience, no manager will pay overtime so most non-manager level people really don't work any more than that.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#123

Post by andylei »

alan_cx wrote: post #53

I don't know much about US employment law, and what I do know, I don't like. But what I do know is this: No employer has ever, ever given me free money, and I have never expected it. There for, I have never ever given an employer free time, and never ever will. To do different is insane. It lowers one's worth since the deal is an exchange of money for time. It makes the employer think your free time is theirs to expl…

> No employer has ever, ever given me free money, and I have never expected it

some firms offer a bonus. i guess that counts as free money way in the way that overtime counts as free time.

> the deal is an exchange of money for time

if that really was the deal, then you'd be paid hourly. i think most programmers exchanging results for money.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#124

Post by fmx »

thurn wrote: post #3

You should be paid to do a fixed amount of work (generate a certain amount of value for your employer), not work a fixed number of hours. If you can get that work done in 10 hours a week, everybody wins. If you need to work 70 hours a week to do that work, well, maybe you're not a good fit for the job.

The problem with that is measuring the amount of value you generate. For some jobs that's easy, like sales - and those jobs typically do pay based on the value generated (ie. commission), at least in part. But for software development and other knowledge worker jobs it's just about impossible.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#125

Post by smallegan »

I'm not a big fan of unionized work but it is worth mentioning that when developers agree to work in poor conditions like this it changes the social norm and negatively impacts the economics surrounding software development.

If 2 developers are working 60 hours a week they are essentially putting a third developer out of work. (I understand that studies show you can't be as productive over a certain number of hours but the principle remains the same) Unless there is a large pool of unemployed developers in the market this need for developer number 3 will in turn drive the cost for a developer up as the market will be more competitive. This is simply supply and demand at work.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#126

Post by mirsadm »

I have noticed that the example you set when you start somewhere new is what is expected of you for the rest of your time at that company. To clarify, if you start a new job and work for free an extra 40 hours a week then you will forever be expected to do that.

I made the mistake of doing that to 'prove' myself and I ended up working very long hours at a place which I wasn't particularly fond of. The person sitting close to me worked exactly 8-5 from day one. Everybody knew he wouldn't be at work after 5 and they never expected it.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#127

Post by railsmax »

That's really true And you are right about over hours. Why should I work more hours and receive money only for 40 hours a week? But sometimes(I mean my case) if you like your work and project and it is intereting to you to do this job, why not to work a little more for example, because sometimes you should finish task today - for your own purpose - not to forget smth. tomorrow. But I said that only for 1-or max 2 hours a day and only sometimes, and you can use this hours if you want for example leave work in friday earlier.
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