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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

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Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#231

Post by NoZebra120vClip »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #69
speeder wrote: post #35

I see a lot of people here forgetting a real case of CoC abuse. There was this famous Drupal dev that wrote a transcript of a fetish wedding on his fetish social media profile. An enemy of his on Drupal quoted that transcript and used it as examples the Dev should be punished. Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished,…

I remember that. It was a massive shitshow from all sides in my opinion. So Larry was into BDSM, that basically made women slaves. He was into the whole community thing and went to a wedding that was in the community. He gave a speech. he shared his speech. Larry's enemy used that as a weapon. But Larry's girlfriend was/is mentally challenged - I dunno what exactly but there were some issues on the mental side of thi…

BDSM doesn't "make women slaves".

Either women or men can choose to take submissive roles, and that is their free choice among practitioners. Likewise, either women or men can choose dominance (in fact it is popular for a dominatrix to be paid for her services.)

The BDSM community (not merely people who have a fetish) is very careful about safety and respect for others. There are safewords and failsafes and safety checks at every stage of the scene.

I think it is dismissive and close-minded to say that such a community "makes women slaves"; it shows that you are an outsider and that you know nothing of their customs, morals, or attitudes.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#232

Post by iudqnolq »

godshatter wrote: post #189
jeffBM wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not something that automatically comes with a COC, they explicitly state it in theirs: "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them."

That's a big nope from me. The scope of the CoC should not extend beyond interactions in the confines of their project otherwise you get people digging up something people said when they were 12 or making value judgements based on their public lifestyle and trying to get them removed because of it. Pretty much the opposite of "inclusive".

Then you get the ongoing debate in the C++ community about whether it's appropriate for someone with a criminal record of sexual abuse to have a trusted role at in person events.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#233

Post by Plasmoid »

LexiMax wrote: post #85
roenxi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition, open source projects are generally balancing on a knife-edge between irrelevance and obsolescence. Any bureaucratic tool that draws attention away from their core focus carries a risk of derailing them. The CoC people are relatively transparent that they want to be able to push people like Torvalds and Stallman out of projects. Raising the question; do we have a limitless supply of Stallmans and Torvalds…

> There is a long queue of people lining up to criticise him, but nobody has successfully cobbled together an alternative to the FSF. This isn't true. I have actually seen several non-FSF/OSI attempts at licenses in the recent past, most notably License Zero with its Prosperity and Parity licenses, as well as alternative licenses like the Server Side Public License and Business Source License. The trouble is that att…

The problem is that Open Source / Free Software is a Brand. I don't mean registered trademark, I mean a term that denotes specific things to people. CGP Grey's Pirate [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YFeE1eDlD0] video actually does a really good job explaining what a brand is the core sense.

Open source means things and people are right to complain when your license doesn't mean that. So you can have your Source-available licenses, use them if it's right for your project, but stop trying to freeboot off the OS/FS brand.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#234

Post by NoZebra120vClip »

klodolph wrote: post #202
davidjfelix wrote: post #197

There's an awful lot of straw man accusations going on in this thread from people who seem to feel threatened by some invisible person who is going to persecute them for something they believe or say or are as a person. Even just an ounce of empathy and you'd realize that's possible without a CoC too and the goal of establishing these boundaries is to protect the people who feel that same way daily because of who the…

Yes, this thread feels like stepping into bizarro land. I see a lot of people equating the presence of a CoC with some kind of 1984-newspeak future. This reminds me of the complaints about seatbelts. Yeah, every once in a while, a seatbelt makes a crash worse. Requiring seatbelts takes away the sense of freedom you have in a car. That sort of thing. Sometimes, a CoC will be abused to harass people. Step back and look…

[flagged]

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#235

Post by [deleted] »

bragr wrote: post #92
theepauk wrote: post #79

The only effect of a Code of Conduct I have ever personally witnessed was that people were being bullied for greeting others. The greeting they used was "hey guys", and instead of recognizing that language is fluid and different to different people they tried to impose their linguistic views on others. The people who encouraged this behavior were people on the Code of Conduct committee and at the top of the project's…

I'm from a part of the US where "guys" is used as a gender neutral collective noun. My mom and grandma would call out "guys, dinner is ready!" to the whole family to call us to the table for example. So it's definitely whiplash inducing for the same group of people preaching inclusion and tolerance, and how we need to accept regional and racial dialects in the workplace, to then turn around and implement slackbots th…

[deleted]

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#236

Post by Plasmoid »

maleldil wrote: post #201
brvsft wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is power. It is simply a power grab where people invent new language and initialisms intending to claim ownership and control of them and use them as a tool to, like you say, exclude people. DI became DEI became DEIB in less than a decade. They are working on new initials as we speak, to confuse and demoralize anyone who opposes this make-it-up-as-we-go-along sophistry. Inventing all of this language infrast…

Can you explain what the abbreviations are for those of us out of the loop?

D - Diversity

E - Equity (not equality)

I - Inclusion

B - Belonging

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#237

Post by klipt »

LexiMax wrote: post #91
commandlinefan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CoC opens up ways for character assassination Has it ever been used in any other way?

Are you asking if a set of rules used to outline acceptable conduct in project participation has ever been enforced in good faith? Because they have, and I guarantee you that you've been aware of such enforcement actions in the past.

Maybe some are written better. GCC's says "no racism" which can be interpreted as allowing hatred of white people because under some academic definitions it's impossible to be racist against white people.

Compare federal law which says "no racial discrimination" which clearly applies equally to all races.

The federal law is written better.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#238

Post by arp242 »

LtWorf wrote: post #89
commitpizza wrote: post #30

I can't wait until the silent majority stops being silent and throws out CoC and their people from projects. It is seriously a toxic thing that creates debates over stuff where there is no need for it to be a debate to begin with.

But if you speak up you're a pedo… I wrote on a debian mailing list a while ago, when they wanted to sign against rms. I didn't address all the accuses against him, just the one about being ableist, and how as a disabled person I don't think non-disabled people should decide just to push their agenda. Anyway, I got some thanks in private, for speaking up, but nobody publicly replied. the mail in question, if you care…

Also, Stallman is clearly a neurodivergent individual, so shouldn't we at least try to be accepting and inclusive of that, too (within limits, of course) instead of jumping on every awkwardly worded remark and interpreting that in the most negative possible way? "Assume good faith" etc.

I wrote a "Stallman is not a good leader, but he's not a transphobic ableist monster" article and I got more feedback over email and Twitter PM than everything else I've written combined.

On HN it was flagged after a brief discussion shrug. I think it upset both the pro- and anti-Stallman people because I do think we're better off without Stallman, but not for the reasons in that ridiculous letter. For all his failings, I do think he's a good person.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#239

Post by rsynnott »

RetpolineDrama wrote: post #121
theepauk wrote: post #79

The only effect of a Code of Conduct I have ever personally witnessed was that people were being bullied for greeting others. The greeting they used was "hey guys", and instead of recognizing that language is fluid and different to different people they tried to impose their linguistic views on others. The people who encouraged this behavior were people on the Code of Conduct committee and at the top of the project's…

I personally never contribute to an OSS that has a CoC, and if I find my organization is using OSS that has a CoC I actively work to remove it and ban my employees from contributing to it. CoC's are poison, and if your project has a "Code of Conduct committee" it is dead to me. I fully admit this hasn't been possible for everything, but I'm making great progress

[flagged]

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#240

Post by throwaway22032 »

The most relaxed, jovial, and ultimately productive environments I've been in have been ones in which people have a healthy sense of humour.

If the basics like "don't be a racist dickhead" need to be codified to someone then they won't last long in most spaces anyway. People generally call that kind of thing out fairly quickly and distance themselves.

Unless we're on 4chan.

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