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Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

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Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#121

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

afavour wrote: post #115
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "nope?" You're implying that PageRank makes MORAL judgements about the content, and you know it doesn't. It CAN'T. All it can know are metrics like incoming links and traffic. You're using "value judgement" here in a completely wrong way. Your definition of "value" and Google's are very different. And, honestly, I'm flummoxed why this is so confusing.

You're the one injecting morals into the debate. At no point am I making a moral argument. I'm saying that PageRank is just one of many value judgements Google makes. Google is not impartial. Not all incoming links are equal, Google makes a value judgement about which domains are more valuable than others. Google also makes value judgements about what is and isn't spam, which includes results that try to game the sys…

Honest to God, I don't think I've ever been so confused by a conversation on the internet in 30 years.

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#122

Post by josephcsible »

mdale wrote: post #110
crisdux wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abortion is a complex and controversial issue. Google does not have an obligation to only show pro-choice material when searching abortion, because that would be a form of censorship and bias that would violate its own principles of neutrality and diversity. I am not persuaded by your argument that these search results will harm users.

I am pretty sure there would be a fair bit of outrage if woman searching for prenatal adoption services were directed to abortion clinics adverting as prenatal adoption centers that then stear people towards the "options" of abortion. The main point is false representation; which Google if they value their relationship with their users .. they do have an obligation to carry advertising towards some degree of truth in…

> I am pretty sure there would be a fair bit of outrage if woman searching for prenatal adoption services were directed to abortion clinics adverting as prenatal adoption centers that then stear people towards the "options" of abortion.

Well yes, because you're supposed to steer people away from killing, not towards it. After all, it's a good thing for searches about suicide to return results about treating depression, but it'd be horrible if searches about treating depression returned results about how to commit suicide.

> The main point is false representation; which Google if they value their relationship with their users .. they do have an obligation to carry advertising towards some degree of truth in representation of product or service being offered.

Continuing with my above example, is it false representation for Google to give you anti-suicide results for searches about suicide? Should they have to be truthful by only giving you results with instructions?

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#123

Post by afavour »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #121
afavour wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the one injecting morals into the debate. At no point am I making a moral argument. I'm saying that PageRank is just one of many value judgements Google makes. Google is not impartial. Not all incoming links are equal, Google makes a value judgement about which domains are more valuable than others. Google also makes value judgements about what is and isn't spam, which includes results that try to game the sys…

Honest to God, I don't think I've ever been so confused by a conversation on the internet in 30 years.

I don't know how I could any clearer than "Google has an interest in providing relevant results to users". If you're still not getting it then you might need to look inwards.

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#124

Post by xdennis »

jtgeibel wrote: post #94
docandrew wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t abortion clinics do the same thing? Planned Parenthood isn’t called Planned Unparenthood. The whole abortion industry is based on euphemisms like your use of “choice” to avoid describing what’s really taking place.

Do you honestly believe that the name Planned Parenthood is confusing to the point of being intentionally deceptive?

Yes. Proponents of abortion (a neutral term) use terms that minimize the actions they are taking to deceive and lessen the guilt of what they are doing.

* terminating the life of a fetus isn't "infanticide" it's a "choice"

* an abortion clinic isn't "an execution center" it's "a medical center"

* people who are against abortion aren't "pro-life" they're "anti-choice"

* abortion isn't "child murder" it's "healthcare"

They do this to normalize their actions. If they spent one second contemplating what they are doing from a neutral point of view it would be terrifying. A la "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream".

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#125

Post by pron »

swexbe wrote: post #95
pron wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That anyone is killed in an abortion is a minority opinion. Some thing , however, is also killed every time you wash your hands.

Only if you disregard everyone outside USA/EU.

And China and India and Muslim countries. An absolutist aversion to abortion is a rather uniquely Christian position and the issue is not so hot outside of majority Christian countries and can be largely considered a peculiarly Christian matter. The second most negative view is probably in Buddhism (which, at least according to Wikipedia, also believes the foetus to be some form of a living human). Other religions may frown upon abortion and forbid it in some situations, but they still don't consider the foetus to be a person.

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#126

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

afavour wrote: post #123
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest to God, I don't think I've ever been so confused by a conversation on the internet in 30 years.

I don't know how I could any clearer than "Google has an interest in providing relevant results to users". If you're still not getting it then you might need to look inwards.

And I have absolutely no idea how Google is supposed to do that in this context without making a human decision, based on morals, and then you accuse me of injecting morality into the discussion. How can you not see how confusing this is?

I'm looking inside, and I just see that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#127

Post by the_mar »

prepend wrote: post #40
afavour wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are these situations comparable? If you google GitHub you’re probably looking for source control. GitLab offers source control. If you google “abortion providers” you’re looking to get an abortion. The ads you see are specifically for people who want to look like abortion providers but actually seek to stop you from getting one and don’t provide any abortion services at all. It’s like googling GitHub and…

> In what way are these situations comparable? People searching for GitHub are more likely to use git and therefore are gitlab’s target audience. People searching for abortions are more likely to get an abortion and thus the target audience for anti-abortion orgs. It seems logical from an advertising perspective even though you may not agree with it. As a pregnant woman deciding what I do with my pregnancy, this isn’…

It would be all totally fine if the pro-life totally not abortion clinics didn’t masquerade as abortion clinics. There is no problem with presenting people with option, but there is a problem with misrepresenting what the options are.

The screenshots in the article show pro-life clinic that is advertising itself as “abortion pill”. Google literally had to implement the “provides abortions” and “does not provide abortions” tags because the results are otherwise indistinguishable.

I totally respect people’s right to choose.I can understand the stance that life is precious. I am not against the ads for pro life clinics, because pregnancy can be scary and it can be a way to find some resources and support.

However it doesn’t feel right that pro life clinics try to trick you into it.

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#128

Post by afavour »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #126
afavour wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how I could any clearer than "Google has an interest in providing relevant results to users". If you're still not getting it then you might need to look inwards.

And I have absolutely no idea how Google is supposed to do that in this context without making a human decision, based on morals, and then you accuse me of injecting morality into the discussion. How can you not see how confusing this is? I'm looking inside, and I just see that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I do not understand why you keep going back to morals here. Google's ad policy is very, very clear:

> We don’t allow ads or destinations that deceive users by excluding relevant product information or providing misleading information about products, services, or businesses.

These anti-abortion activist ads provide misleading information about the products and/or services they provide. No moral judgement required: they are misleading ads.

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#129

Post by the_mar »

veave wrote: post #65
afavour wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are these situations comparable? If you google GitHub you’re probably looking for source control. GitLab offers source control. If you google “abortion providers” you’re looking to get an abortion. The ads you see are specifically for people who want to look like abortion providers but actually seek to stop you from getting one and don’t provide any abortion services at all. It’s like googling GitHub and…

I want to think that people who google abortion providers don't want their babies killed, they simply need help, one way or another

Fair. It’s valid to present options. The problem here is not that pro life orgs show up as ads in abortion searches.

It is quite a bit shit that pro life organizations advertise themselves as abortion clinics. You can see it in the screenshot in the article, the ad is talking about abortion pill, no mention of pro life whatsoever. It is literally indistinguishable from actual abortion clinics, and it is by design.

Why do we need to trick women into it? Why do you have to wait weeks for your appointment with a fake abortion clinic only to find out hours into your appointment that they will actually not provide an abortion?

Re: Googling 'abortion clinic near me'? The top result often an anti-abortion clinic

#130

Post by civilitty »

rcme wrote: post #43
hexis wrote: post #5

I just googled GitHub and the top results were ads for circleci and gitlab. Buying ads for competitors keywords is extremely normal. Gitlab would love to dissuade me from using GitHub, just as a crisis pregnancy center would love to dissuade me from getting an abortion.

I’ve actually thought it was weird Google was allowed to advertise competitors for keyword searches. Like how is Google not leveraging GitHub’s brand to sell ads to competitors in this case?

It's the digital equivalent of a protection racket. I hope we eventually address this as part of anti-trust regulations because it's been a money sink for every company I've ever worked at.
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