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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

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Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#181

Post by LexiMax »

rgoulter wrote: post #143
LexiMax wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t. I have been away from hacker news for about 2 to 3 years and quite frankly I am shocked that this place is still having this same tired argument whereas outside it seems to be an accepted fact of life that having rules surrounding the conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing.

> outside it seems to be an accepted fact of life that having rules surrounding the conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing. I think this talks past concerns. "Just kick out the rude people" is probably a good thing. "Just kick out the people the admins don't like" is probably a bad thing (or at least isn't as impartial as the former). With sections like "In addition, violations of this code outside t…

> I think this talks past concerns.

That is intentional, as I believe that these discussions attract rules lawyers who I feel are missing the point.

If the people running the project enforce rules in bad faith, a CoC like the Contributors Code of Conduct is not materially different from an informal list of bullet-point rules, or even an tacit "Don't be a jerk."

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#182

Post by ZeroGravitas »

nkuttler wrote: post #162
that_guy_iain wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When non-native English speakers are taught English, they are taught that "Hey guys" is gender neutral. So you'll meet lots of non-native English speakers who will be completely shocked at that it's not. I have so much fun joking with some of my women friends that they're sexist because they're using "guys" instead of "folks". To me, it's one of those things where someone is always going to be awkward and say "that d…

The fact that it was white people bullying people from all over the planet only made it worse.

I've noticed that white people as a group regularly get abuse in anti-woke HN threads. Seems bizarre to me.

I guess it is some kind of "gotcha", intended to undermine "woke" people but it seems a bit self-defeating.

"White people are so racist they're even racist when they're trying to be non-racist" seems more woke than anti-woke to me, but that doesn't seem to be the intention.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#183

Post by commandlinefan »

roenxi wrote: post #51
JonChesterfield wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair warning, I do not like codes of conduct. They're an authoritarian power play justified by fear. Codes of conduct are more about changing who is in the community than about changing the conduct of existing community members. Periodically someone runs afoul of the ruling elite who pass judgement upon them behind closed doors, usually leading to excommunication. The atmosphere of knowing what you say will be report…

In addition, open source projects are generally balancing on a knife-edge between irrelevance and obsolescence. Any bureaucratic tool that draws attention away from their core focus carries a risk of derailing them. The CoC people are relatively transparent that they want to be able to push people like Torvalds and Stallman out of projects. Raising the question; do we have a limitless supply of Stallmans and Torvalds…

[flagged]

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#184

Post by dotnet00 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #129
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most instances it is not the rules that are the problem, it is the people enforcing the rules that is the problem You need two things for this kind of problem to occur: 1. people who abuse power 2. rules that allow this abuse (in this case the CoC) You cannot change humans, but you can lobby to prevent 2 from happening (in this case lobby against a CoC to become adopted).

I disagree; you need rules to give guidelines to the moderators and participants both. The alternative is that there are no rules, or moderators get to decide themselves what is and isn't allowed, on a whim and inconsistenly, causing infighting and confusion. Call it something else than a code of conduct if it helps, but I don't believe you can not have a guideline of sorts.

This is making the incorrect assumption that moderators are somehow limited by the rules. They're always able to justify anything via sufficiently vague rules ("this isn't an exhaustive list" etc) or even just ignoring the rules and banning people they dislike, because for the most part, people don't notice unless they go after someone well known.

All a CoC does is setup the illusion of open and unbiased enforcement.

It's like how cops have rules about needing reasonable cause to search vehicles lending them some legitimacy, but they simply have a dog trained to signal for something suspicious even when there isn't anything, allowing them to claim reasonable cause without being able to be questioned.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#185

Post by lopkeny12ko »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #175
lopkeny12ko wrote: post #99

I must be missing something very obvious here. Why does my C compiler need a code of conduct?

Your C compiler is the result of a committee of hundreds, if not thousands of people; every line of code used is the result of collaboration, with the actual line of code being an implementation detail. You can't have a product like this without its community, and you can't have a community without rules.

I would hope that the contributors to a core infrastructure project like gcc are able to do so because of their technical merits and not because they fit in with a set of arbitrary rules declared by a small, power-hungry group.

As others have already pointed out, paradoxically, CoCs in OSS have done more net social harm than good. God forbid your project's top contributor use the word "guys" or "blacklist" else he'll be immediately ousted from the project.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#186

Post by EricMausler »

GunnarSturla wrote: post #110
giraffe_lady wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll buy this when I hear a straight man talk about the guys he's dated. A thing that I have still never once observed.

I don't think this example counters the gender neutrality of "guys". Have you ever observed a straight man talk about the people he's dated?

If everyone I dated were in a room, then I, a heterosexual male, very much might address that room as guys. As in, "hey guys, what are you doing here?"

I absolutely would not say "hey ladies"

It would feel too formal to say "hey everyone"

"Hey people" would be awkward

"Hey you all" eh

It might be better to leave it at "hey"

It might be best to just say "bye"

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#187

Post by nkuttler »

woodruffw wrote: post #169
nkuttler wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what kind of details you're looking for?

You said you personally witnessed something; I'd like to understand more about it. In particular: did you witness the instigating incident, the bullying, or both? Did the bullying actually weaponize a CoC, or is it your impression that the presence of a CoC empowered the bully? Is "bullying" your characterization or someone else's? And so on.

I witnessed everything, the bullies used the CoC to justify their behavior and told me their committee encouraged their enforcement of the CoC in this way. People on the committee have published articles on the matter calling for such enforcement. Bullying is well defined https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying, I specifically mean it in the sense of repeated abusive behavior by people with more power.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#188

Post by malwrar »

I honestly really prefer an abrasive community. I think one thing we lost with the adoption of CoCs was the ability of the community to naturally filter out low-quality or abusive (do my homework or project for me) participants, and encourage dedication by requiring new users to earn actual real respect before being given it. It felt rewarding and… real to me to participate in these sorts of spaces, and is one of the reasons I used to love online communities. CoC communities have always felt like tofu in comparison, but tbh I think my life improved by not spending so much time on the computer anyways.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#189

Post by godshatter »

jeffBM wrote: post #82
practice9 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished, an ex girlfriend of his was harassed by "helpful" people Oh wow. I was undecided about the helpfulness of CoC as sometimes people in the project can become hostile, unstable or passive-aggressive. But this case is very bad. Seems like CoC opens up ways for character assassina…

It is not something that automatically comes with a COC, they explicitly state it in theirs: "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them."

That's a big nope from me. The scope of the CoC should not extend beyond interactions in the confines of their project otherwise you get people digging up something people said when they were 12 or making value judgements based on their public lifestyle and trying to get them removed because of it. Pretty much the opposite of "inclusive".
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