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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

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Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#61

Post by Dalewyn »

foldr wrote: post #60
Dalewyn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say you're a car mechanic and you work at a car shop. The car shop fires you for saying the Moon is made of cheese during a BBQ at a friend's on Saturday, because it's against the nebulous code of conduct. Now let's say you're a programmer and you like volunteering code to GCC. The project bans you because your beliefs expressed anywhere, including in the privacy of your own home, violate the nebulous code of conduct…

>Say you're a car mechanic and you work at a car shop. The car shop fires you for saying the Moon is made of cheese during a BBQ at a friend's on Saturday, because it's against the nebulous code of conduct. Or maybe we’re slowly but surely moving to a world where the rights of women and minority groups are being slowly eroded after decades of progress, and before long me and all the other gays will be rounded up and…

I'm going to ask you this again because you seem to have reading comprehension problems:

What part of having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business do you not understand?

This is framing "violations of this code outside [spaces managed by the GCC project]" in a context more relatable to common men.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#62

Post by [deleted] »

Akronymus wrote: post #32

Overall it seems like a pretty decent CoC. Altough, I am REALLY not a fan of this line: "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." I fear that that stipulation will be used to try and kick out people for holding "bad" opinions outside of the project. Like what was tried with Elia Schito.

[deleted]

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#63

Post by unconed »

speeder wrote: post #35

I see a lot of people here forgetting a real case of CoC abuse. There was this famous Drupal dev that wrote a transcript of a fetish wedding on his fetish social media profile. An enemy of his on Drupal quoted that transcript and used it as examples the Dev should be punished. Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished,…

And not only that: when the committee for enforcing the CoC decided the CoC wasn't actually violated, the entire witch hunt continued with more and more made up reasons why this person was bad and deserved to be punished.

This included the project lead writing blog posts and then silently editing them afterwards. It was never about the rules, only about creating a body of people with the aurhority to act like total cunts in the name of civility. That's what they get off on.

If CoC sound like a nice idea to you... remember, we had waaaay less drama in open source before the people who want CoCs showed up.

Instead of just 1 angry mail on a mailing list you can ignore, now there is weeks of drama as reputations are destroyed, communities are split, and the press gets involved to feed off the carcass.

Once you understand this dynamic, you see it for what it is: the petty feuds of small minded people, who claim to love open source but cannot stand the fact that anyone really is welcome.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#64

Post by hospitalJail »

speeder wrote: post #35

I see a lot of people here forgetting a real case of CoC abuse. There was this famous Drupal dev that wrote a transcript of a fetish wedding on his fetish social media profile. An enemy of his on Drupal quoted that transcript and used it as examples the Dev should be punished. Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished,…

Back when I had my public account, I posted a link to my work. Someone found my personal twitter, went back a few years, and saw I made a joke about obesity.

The entire thread flipped on me.

Since I've been hyperconscious to separate the work people accomplish from the organic thing that did the work. If not for that event, I'd still be using that account and I'd be critical of people who do 'bad' stuff on their off-time.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#65

Post by gizmo686 »

This CoC is fine as far as it goes (unlike a certain copypasta CoC that was being spread years ago).

However, the real gold is in the GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [0] that is linked to at the bottom, which has existed for years (published 2018, updated 2022). I wish they would have just merge the two documents instead of incorporating by reference.

[0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.en.html

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#66

Post by zajio1am »

foldr wrote: post #36
Dalewyn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sold on the idea that "violations of this code outside these spaces" is a bad thing, Let's frame it in a more relatable context. Your employer can fire you for violating the company code of conduct, despite your behaviour having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business.

This is completely commonplace. Yes, you can be fired for doing something outside of work that would bring your employer into disrepute. If anything this used to be much more common before the era of codes of conduct, when people were, for example, routinely fired when it was discovered that they were gay.

> This is completely commonplace.

Not in EU.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#67

Post by lionkor »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #22
lionkor wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lead the moderation team for BeamMP (beammp.com, 150k+ User Discord) for a few months, and been part of it for much longer, and the two most positive changes I've seen are: - Regular meetings to keep everyone on-track (as nobody is being paid, its a passion project, etc) - Setting up clear rules and moderation guidelines, together. The team sat together and came up with a list of do's and don't's, best practices…

Do you just moderate stuff that happens on the discord, or do you ban people if they do some "wrong" stuff outside of discord? Because the CoC draft allows excluding people for doing "wrong" stuff even outside of GCC (-trackers, -mailing lists, etc.). There's a difference for baning people in places where they should behave professionally, and banning people for stuff they do outside of those places.

Outside, too - its a multiplayer game, so official servers are moderated also.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#68

Post by hospitalJail »

mbStavola wrote: post #33
commitpizza wrote: post #30

I can't wait until the silent majority stops being silent and throws out CoC and their people from projects. It is seriously a toxic thing that creates debates over stuff where there is no need for it to be a debate to begin with.

How do you know the silent majority aren't in favor of CoCs?

Yep, people act like they want to treat everyone's work independent until some personal event comes up.

I had to get attacked for a joke I put on social media before I realized how insane CoCs on voluntary work are.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#69

Post by that_guy_iain »

speeder wrote: post #35

I see a lot of people here forgetting a real case of CoC abuse. There was this famous Drupal dev that wrote a transcript of a fetish wedding on his fetish social media profile. An enemy of his on Drupal quoted that transcript and used it as examples the Dev should be punished. Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished,…

I remember that. It was a massive shitshow from all sides in my opinion.

So Larry was into BDSM, that basically made women slaves. He was into the whole community thing and went to a wedding that was in the community. He gave a speech. he shared his speech. Larry's enemy used that as a weapon.

But Larry's girlfriend was/is mentally challenged - I dunno what exactly but there were some issues on the mental side of things that she needed help with. (Not meant to be nasty, I dunno how else to put it in a better way) Larry said he talked to the therapist/doctor/whatever who looked after his girlfriend and explained their kink to make sure they were ok with it and she wasn't being taken advantage of. This was a big deal to the people who didn't like Larry and they kept banging on about how he was taking advantage of a vulnerable woman.

Larry took her to a drupal conference thing. She wrote some code that went to Drupal's code base and those commits were attributed to Larry. There was an implication that she was forced and enslaved to write code for Drupal.

Larry's enemy as far as I know actually broke the code of conduct and I believe was banned.

Larry as far as I know while didn't do anything against the code of conduct was stopped from being allowed to contribute to conferences and various other things and basically stripped of his position within the Drupal Community and he was reasonably well respected within the PHP and Drupal community however he wasn't banned like the other person and remained in the community. He is still active there with his last post being 2 days ago.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#70

Post by userbinator »

foldr wrote: post #26
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you believe that only married male-female couples should have sex and children? Or that people with penises don't belong in womens spaces? Or whatever other currently controversial topic? It has nothing to do with GCC, nothing with code quality, nothing with your contributions to the project, you don't say that in code, in code comments, on gcc mailing lists, anywhere gcc related. But, because of the CoC ( ht…

The irony here is that you're using the same kind of logic (the project can't survive if it's closed to transphobes!) that's mocked in the following comment when the shoe is on the other foot (LOL the project can't survive without trans people): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36430649 This does highlight the point that diversity is to some extent a zero sum game. You can welcome trans people to your project, or…

You can welcome trans people to your project, or transphobes, but not necessarily both.

You don't need to "welcome" either. You just don't talk about that stuff because it has zero relevance to your project, unless you're trying to use it as a political statement (which technical projects shouldn't be at all.)

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