Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#101

Post by batista » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 1:51 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #62

grellas wrote: post #48

The U.S. has a strong free enterprise foundation and its laws reflect this. Freedom of contract remains the rule even though it is much criticized in some circles and has been hedged considerably over the years. In employment, the old rule was that you could pretty much fire anyone at will for any reason and, if you did, you incurred no legal consequence. This is pure freedom of contract. In time, this unrestricted f…

Didn't read all of what you wrote, just one question: if there is freedom of contract, why wouldn't an employee be free to negotiate a contract that can't be cancelled on short notice?

Didn't read all of what you wrote, just one question: if there is freedom of contract, why wouldn't an employee be free to negotiate a contract that can't be cancelled on short notice?

Because the power is on the side of the guy giving the job, not on the guy having to pay mortgage and feed a family with two kids.

Sought after, rock-start, "I'll shop around", programmers are by definition few and far between. And even if somehow everybody managed to be one, their value and "shop-around"-ability would fall too (because there would be many to pick from).

The law must also protect regular joe employees.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#102

Post by SonicSoul » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 1:53 PM UTC

i'm never a fan of these blanket statements such as "i won't work unpaid overtime". Some jobs are 35 hours, and some jobs are 70 hours. Some jobs pay 40k, and some jobs pay 200k. Who said that 40hr week is the holy and undisputed threshold everyone should abide by? Look at construction workers, some of them work from sun up to sun down, 6-7 days a week (i sure did when i was younger) and there is no such hour standard. Sure they are often paid on how much work gets done, but at the end of the month, many won't make more than someone with a good salary working in an office writing code. I am not trivializing writing code. that's what i do, and i often work 60-70hr weeks, and sometimes it's a stressful time. But i do get paid accordingly (not in overtime, but i consider my salary to be great), and i do get a lot more done than average person would in 40hrs. I guess if your employer tells you it will be 40hrs and it turns out to be 70, thats a problem. but in my experience most of the time you know exactly what you're getting into when accepting a job (besides occasional crunch times couple times a year).

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#103

Post by toadi » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 1:54 PM UTC

BadassFractal wrote: post #42

toadi wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the people cleaning after you in the office. The people picking up your trash or the millions of other jobs that pay the bill. Now if we are only talking in the domain of information workers. There is still CRUD to be developed or the 1 millionth website designed or other boring business logic to be developed. I got this questions many times if you win the lottery would you still be doing your job. Hell…

Why do I have to compare my situation to that of a latin-american middle-aged lady that ran away from the crippling poverty of her country to pursue her version of the American dream? How does that put in perspective 300 grand I dumped into six years of education at two top 5 US institutions and years of experience at industry giants? If I had unlimited money, I would still work in technology and with technology, I s…

What a stereotyping. I think in America a lot of people have 2 jobs or maybe 3 jobs. They must be loving their job. America is the greatest and best country if have to dump 300 grand in education.

Luckily I can study at a university in Belgium that's one of the top 100 universities in the world for a fraction of that amount.

Actually If I had unlimited money I would do the same thing as what Bill Gates is doing now. It benefits people too and you don't have to do the work :D

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#104

Post by batista » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 1:59 PM UTC

BadassFractal wrote: post #56

alan_cx wrote: post #53

I don't know much about US employment law, and what I do know, I don't like. But what I do know is this: No employer has ever, ever given me free money, and I have never expected it. There for, I have never ever given an employer free time, and never ever will. To do different is insane. It lowers one's worth since the deal is an exchange of money for time. It makes the employer think your free time is theirs to expl…

It's at-will employment, if you don't like it, you can leave at any point. Basically if you don't like being exploited, quit and get it over with. As people pointed out though, it's a different story once health care is part of the equation.

It's at-will employment, if you don't like it, you can leave at any point. Basically if you don't like being exploited, quit and get it over with.

No, it's not at-will employment. At will employment would be, "I want to work at Google", and snap you're working at Google.

Real life employment is more like: how is the general economy? how is your specific field's economy? If you quit this job, can you last for a while while seeking a new one? Are local firms hiring or do you have to leave your town to find a job? Are your skills still relevant? Do you have a family to feed? Do you have mortgage payments? Are you 1 in 100 kind of programmer, where companies compete to hire you, or 1 in 20, where you can shop around a little? Maybe you are one of 19 in 20, ie average, and you don't get much say. Do you even have had an education, or couldn't afford one? Are you/any member of your family sick, do you absolutely need health coverage?

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#105

Post by bnr » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 2:04 PM UTC

Strom wrote: post #85

In Europe your health is not tied to your employment in any way. This statement is just wrong. In Estonia, health insurance is subscription based, paid as a tax from your salary.

So you lose your health insurance when you lose your job? How is health insurance for unemployed people handled in Estonia?

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#106

Post by frobozz » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 2:14 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #95

frobozz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The same can be said of professionals, as many computer professionals look primarily to the task and not to the hourly measure as the mark of their jobs. In my field, lawyers too see the hours worked as entirely secondary to their jobs. This is true, and there is no problem with occasionally having to do a bit of crunch time to meet a deadline, or even doing the odd extra half-hour reasonably frequently. OTOH, There…

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development.

> or try to get a highly sought-after position with a benevolent or wise employer who takes care not burn out their employees; but the former doesn't sound like freedom at all, and the latter still leaves the majority of normal people vulnerable to exploitation.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#107

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 2:19 PM UTC

batista wrote: post #99

tptacek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development.

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development. And the attitude displayed in this argument, is part of the problem, IMHO. Because it translates to only "rock-star" (as denoted by the "qualified") programmers/employees getting to benefit from such an environment. It's as if…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#108

Post by batista » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 2:23 PM UTC

batista wrote: post #99

tptacek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development.

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development. And the attitude displayed in this argument, is part of the problem, IMHO. Because it translates to only "rock-star" (as denoted by the "qualified") programmers/employees getting to benefit from such an environment. It's as if…

None of the points you're arguing with follow from my comment.

Huh?

You specifically said in your comment that: "a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer".

This is exactly what I addressed.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#109

Post by brudgers » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 2:23 PM UTC

The title is misleading.

[IANAL] In the United States, for a person in a salaried position, work week hours beyond 40 are not legally classified as overtime.

For salaried positions, the length of the workweek and compensation for additional hours are always subject to negotiation (for hourly positions compensation for overtime is also negotiable but cannot be less than the statutory minimums).

In my opinion, the author's analysis of economics entailed by salaried positions is rather naive. Hourly rate of pay is often less important than the monthly or weekly or yearly rate, i.e. cashflow is often the more important consideration. For example, if one's household maintenance is $10,000 per month, then monthly income, rather than hourly rate, is likely to be a more critical issue in regards to compensation.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#110

Post by tptacek » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 2:26 PM UTC

batista wrote: post #108

batista wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development. And the attitude displayed in this argument, is part of the problem, IMHO. Because it translates to only "rock-star" (as denoted by the "qualified") programmers/employees getting to benefit from such an environment. It's as if…

None of the points you're arguing with follow from my comment. Huh? You specifically said in your comment that: " a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer ". This is exactly what I addressed.

No, it clearly isn't. You used a series of terms that I didn't that changed the meaning of what I said, then argued against that instead of what I actually said.