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Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

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Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#91

Post by bdunbar »

Tichy wrote: post #73
alan_cx wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the thing is the USA is the flip side of the USSR. One was the definition of socialism, the other capitalism. Here in Europe we consider both systems as tools to use, rather than rules for running a state. Part of me wonders if the US obsession with uber capitalism is some sort of historic anti Europe thing, or a way that they remain different and separate. Its US identity. Having booted the Europeans and gaine…

I don't really understand the logic, because it seems to me that as long as they pay taxes in the US, they are just as "socialist" as, say, Germany with their health insurance. What is the difference if you build roads for the common good or buy health insurance for the common good. Also I don't understand how capitalism makes health care tied to employment. In theory shouldn't there be health insurers who are willin…

In theory shouldn't there be health insurers who are willing to ensure you just as long as you pay your rates?

There are, in actual fact, insurance companies in the US that will do this. Some make it a business to cater to self-employed folks who don't have company insurance.

It's been a while since I thought about this, but (IIRC) the 'private companies pay for insurance' deal got started in World War II, as a perk. Companies could not compete for scarce labor (salary freeze) so they offered basic health insurance to attract workers. From there it just grew.

So why do so many of us accept it, when there are free-market alternatives? I think it's the convenience.

Take my dental plan at work. For about $10 a month I'm covered for all routine stuff at the dentist. Extraordinary work will cost me a bit off the top, but not _that_ much, for the care I'm getting.

Which is pretty much the plan I'd get if I eschewed the work plan and bought one on my own.

The convenience is that work has a team of guys who deal with the insurance companies, getting deals, selecting plans, negotiating rates, basically dealing with a lot of hassle so I don't have to.

Now, I could get a better rate on my own, and I probably _should_ if I were really worried about being laid-off but .. it's just easier this way. A trade-off.

For a lot of us, this is okay: the plans our employers offer are pretty good. For some people, who have sucky employers and rotten plans ... it's sub-optimal.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#92

Post by jasonlotito »

x5315 wrote: post #58
krolley wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your 10 - 19:30 (9.5 hour) day also include time for lunch and dinner that twitter generously provides?

Yep.

So, the reality is, you aren't working long hours. Neither am I. You are, in effect, working 8 hours a day, with an hour for lunch and a half hour for dinner. That you might choose to work while having lunch and dinner is up to you, but I also doubt you are working 100% of the time, either. This isn't to say you don't work hard, but just to say you aren't really working long hours.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#93

Post by spiralpolitik »

Generally IMHO not paying overtime usually masks inefficiencies in your business. If someone is having to work 70-80 hour weeks to get the job done then something is messed up somewhere in your process.

Paying overtime is an easy way to spot these area as its immediately visible to any half brained manager.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#94

Post by orblivion »

urbanjunkie wrote: post #55
grellas wrote: post #48

The U.S. has a strong free enterprise foundation and its laws reflect this. Freedom of contract remains the rule even though it is much criticized in some circles and has been hedged considerably over the years. In employment, the old rule was that you could pretty much fire anyone at will for any reason and, if you did, you incurred no legal consequence. This is pure freedom of contract. In time, this unrestricted f…

"I don't believe that most such employees see their work as "slavery" when they have to work excessive hours. I think they see it as career development" That made me laugh. "Top executives" typically have compensation packages that, to some degree, directly tie their compensation to the overall company performance. Thus, the harder they work, the more likely it is that the company will perform to or above expectation…

Would they keep their job if they refused to work more than 40 hours? Is there a 40 hour a week job out there that pays and furthers their career comperably? If not, I don't know what to call it other than career development.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#95

Post by tptacek »

frobozz wrote: post #82
grellas wrote: post #48

The U.S. has a strong free enterprise foundation and its laws reflect this. Freedom of contract remains the rule even though it is much criticized in some circles and has been hedged considerably over the years. In employment, the old rule was that you could pretty much fire anyone at will for any reason and, if you did, you incurred no legal consequence. This is pure freedom of contract. In time, this unrestricted f…

>The same can be said of professionals, as many computer professionals look primarily to the task and not to the hourly measure as the mark of their jobs. In my field, lawyers too see the hours worked as entirely secondary to their jobs. This is true, and there is no problem with occasionally having to do a bit of crunch time to meet a deadline, or even doing the odd extra half-hour reasonably frequently. OTOH, There…

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#96

Post by alexbowman »

mrleinad wrote: post #46
latch wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, he suggests that no one should work overtime, which isn't practical for people who can't afford to get fired. Second, he suggest that there's no benefit to working over time, while many would see keeping your job as a benefit. I'm not sure if he realizes that refusal to work overtime can, in itself, be a reason to get fired, or if that consequence simply doesn't matter to him. Either way, saying that they shou…

First, he suggests that no one should work overtime, which isn't practical for people who can't afford to get fired. Second, he suggest that there's no benefit to working over time, while many would see keeping your job as a benefit. Even if the employee receives proper benefits from those extra working hours (in Argentina, extra hours should be paid double what a regular hour costs), how is his point invalid? He's a…

On the China point, while wages are lower, there are five factors related to total cost not often discussed.

Average 'fringe' in China, defined as social insurance paid to government, state pension, etc, averages 40% of salary for most employers like factories and BPOs. Total cost of employment per employee in China is more expensive than most of Asia.

Overtime of more than 36 hours per month for each employee is illegal in China, and the court always sides with the employee even on the scrappiest amount of evidence.

China makes up for this with awesome infrastructure reducing logistics costs a lot. Wage costs are only around 15% of total cost of production for a factory like Foxconn.

Some factories do not provide great conditions, but these are mainly small factories with no gloves when handling pollutants, etc. When I mention small factories, I mean a warehouse with wooden tables, anything with plant and scale is monitored closely. Monitored by the public with mobile phone cameras as much as by officials. There is a strong public backlash movement on the Chinese language internet and it is effective.

On glass vs. plastic... China can be incredibly agile especially when dealing with partners that are privately owned properly licensed companies which lack global levels of bureaucracy. Today, in my global multinational, I was requested for 3 directors' 'approvals' for the acquisition of 3 new IP phone sets, while another request which goes through another route which, for 50 desktop units and 100 screens, did not require any 'approval'. Do not discount baggage slowing things down.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#97

Post by tptacek »

djhworld wrote: post #78

There is no contract stipulation in my contract that says I might need to do overtime. The only mention of overtime is the fact that it is unpaid. So I've never done it. I get in at 8:30am and leave at 5pm every day.

There doesn't have to be; if you're told to get X done before leaving the office, and 5pm rolls around with X undone, you can be fired. That's the nature of at-will employment.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#98

Post by nandemo »

x5315 wrote: post #21

I work at Twitter, where i regularly work longs hours (my standard work day is something like 10 - 19:30) and am frequently on call. I even spend time at the weekends thinking and hacking on specific problems. I feel that the author's post doesn't apply in my case, because: - Some of the problems i work on are amazing. They're interesting and fun, and i enjoy them outside the normal "work hours". - Twitter has an "un…

> I regularly work longs hours (my standard work day is something like 10 - 19:30)

I live in Japan and what is this?

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#99

Post by batista »

tptacek wrote: post #95
frobozz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The same can be said of professionals, as many computer professionals look primarily to the task and not to the hourly measure as the mark of their jobs. In my field, lawyers too see the hours worked as entirely secondary to their jobs. This is true, and there is no problem with occasionally having to do a bit of crunch time to meet a deadline, or even doing the odd extra half-hour reasonably frequently. OTOH, There…

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development.

The more likely response is that a qualified employee will simply quit an abusive job and sell their skills to a more reasonable employer. This is certainly the case in US software development.

And the attitude displayed in this argument, is part of the problem, IMHO. Because it translates to only "rock-star" (as denoted by the "qualified") programmers/employees getting to benefit from such an environment. It's as if, if some person isn't a top-notch in his field, it's ok to suffer that kind of abuse from his employer.

Yet, companies don't run only with "qualified" guys that can easily shop around for new jobs, they also use lots of run-of-the-mill programmers, sometimes even purposefully ("we get a few greats to design the program architecture, and dozens of monkeys to code the parts"). They also should not have to work for unpaid overtime.

(I'm not talking as a sprint to finish before some deadline once in a while, I'm talking as a regular occurrence).

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#100

Post by orblivion »

Well, I have an American way of looking at things. Why is 40 hours the magical number? Why is it that you're working for free after that point? He was correct in the first place that it's devaluing your hourly worth (assuming time is fungible). But guess what, if you can't get the job done that the employer wants to pay you the given salary for in the 40 hours you expected to satisfy him with, and the employer would let you go if you told him that this wasn't what you signed up for, you are devalued. The employer hired you for a certain amount of work and was willing to pay a certain amount of money for it. If you made an agreement about the work to be accomplished, and did not make an agreement about hours, and you end up working 80 hours a week, you are being paid overtime. Your base salary is just much lower because you're not worth very much to that particular employer at the base salary.

Now, if the employer would not fire you if you put your foot down, it's a matter of knowing your true worth. And I definitely agree it's worth doing this if you end up in this sort of situation. Either you part ways from a job that isn't worth it to you, or you get the conditions that are worth it to you. Negotiations have some leeway, you don't really know what the other person is willing to give up.

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