Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#61

Post by Tichy » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 9:28 AM UTC

BadassFractal wrote: post #56

alan_cx wrote: post #53

I don't know much about US employment law, and what I do know, I don't like. But what I do know is this: No employer has ever, ever given me free money, and I have never expected it. There for, I have never ever given an employer free time, and never ever will. To do different is insane. It lowers one's worth since the deal is an exchange of money for time. It makes the employer think your free time is theirs to expl…

It's at-will employment, if you don't like it, you can leave at any point. Basically if you don't like being exploited, quit and get it over with. As people pointed out though, it's a different story once health care is part of the equation.

That's so weird. As if there was some kind of conspiracy between health care providers and employers. I mean you probably take it for granted that health care is tied to a job, but that really isn't the case at all. Where I live (Germany) it is organized in a completely different way. If you lose your job, social insurance will keep paying your health insurance.

It's ironic because "your way" actually seems to be taking freedom away from you, yet the US seems to consider a model like the German one to be the ultimate slavery (socialism).

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#62

Post by Tichy » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 9:29 AM UTC

grellas wrote: post #48

The U.S. has a strong free enterprise foundation and its laws reflect this. Freedom of contract remains the rule even though it is much criticized in some circles and has been hedged considerably over the years. In employment, the old rule was that you could pretty much fire anyone at will for any reason and, if you did, you incurred no legal consequence. This is pure freedom of contract. In time, this unrestricted f…

Didn't read all of what you wrote, just one question: if there is freedom of contract, why wouldn't an employee be free to negotiate a contract that can't be cancelled on short notice?

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#63

Post by kenneth_reitz » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 9:37 AM UTC

troels wrote: post #59

x5315 wrote: post #21

I work at Twitter, where i regularly work longs hours (my standard work day is something like 10 - 19:30) and am frequently on call. I even spend time at the weekends thinking and hacking on specific problems. I feel that the author's post doesn't apply in my case, because: - Some of the problems i work on are amazing. They're interesting and fun, and i enjoy them outside the normal "work hours". - Twitter has an "un…

> Twitter has an "unlimited"—be respectful to your team—holiday policy. I've probably taken about 6-7 weeks off in my one and a quarter years here. Curious as to how these things work in the states. I take it that you pay for the time off from your salary? (E.g. you don't get any for the period) Do you have any time off that is paid by your employer?

I'm positive it's paid time off. Heroku and GitHub have identical policies.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#64

Post by Natsu » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 9:54 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #61

BadassFractal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's at-will employment, if you don't like it, you can leave at any point. Basically if you don't like being exploited, quit and get it over with. As people pointed out though, it's a different story once health care is part of the equation.

That's so weird. As if there was some kind of conspiracy between health care providers and employers. I mean you probably take it for granted that health care is tied to a job, but that really isn't the case at all. Where I live (Germany) it is organized in a completely different way. If you lose your job, social insurance will keep paying your health insurance. It's ironic because "your way" actually seems to be tak…

They've tried to change the health insurance problem. I'm not sure how much Obamacare will do in that regard, as a practical matter, but we'll eventually find out one way or another, assuming it's not repealed or struck down first.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#65

Post by alan_cx » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 9:57 AM UTC

BadassFractal wrote: post #56

alan_cx wrote: post #53

I don't know much about US employment law, and what I do know, I don't like. But what I do know is this: No employer has ever, ever given me free money, and I have never expected it. There for, I have never ever given an employer free time, and never ever will. To do different is insane. It lowers one's worth since the deal is an exchange of money for time. It makes the employer think your free time is theirs to expl…

It's at-will employment, if you don't like it, you can leave at any point. Basically if you don't like being exploited, quit and get it over with. As people pointed out though, it's a different story once health care is part of the equation.

Yes, and people really should quit. If they did, then employers might just get the message. As a former employer (Im now 39 and retired), I never ever expected people to work for free. Never. That is literally slave labour to me.

The health care thing, as it exists in the US, is a nasty whip by which people are beaten. It is one very good reason why the US could do with a national health care system for all. As it stands, I do understand why people are too scared to take risks. Health should never be a reason for exploitation.

Sadly, what you are saying is that its fine for business to exploit human beings. I say no. I have enough self respect and confidence to walk. I will not be abused by these people.

Having read that previous article about that woman who went to work in one of those huge warehouses, my view has hardened. Essentially, in the USA you have Indian business practice now. Why? Because everything is driven down by price. Ironically, the people who have to work in those places are the very people who need those prices, and so we see condition and prices decline.

Seriously, aren't things supposed to get better with time? Or os that only for the few at the top?

This Uber capitalism thing will end in tears. IMHO, capitalism is a tool to be used, not a way of life. As is socialism. Society needs to embrace both, and use both where appropriate.

But hey, I live in the UK. Things are a bit better here. For now...

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#66

Post by Natsu » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 9:58 AM UTC

x5315 wrote: post #21

I work at Twitter, where i regularly work longs hours (my standard work day is something like 10 - 19:30) and am frequently on call. I even spend time at the weekends thinking and hacking on specific problems. I feel that the author's post doesn't apply in my case, because: - Some of the problems i work on are amazing. They're interesting and fun, and i enjoy them outside the normal "work hours". - Twitter has an "un…

I think most people don't mind when there's some kind of flexibility or give-and-take. But there are also jobs that will just plain suck you dry and never give you anything for all the effort you pour into them.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#67

Post by x5315 » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 9:59 AM UTC

troels wrote: post #59

x5315 wrote: post #21

I work at Twitter, where i regularly work longs hours (my standard work day is something like 10 - 19:30) and am frequently on call. I even spend time at the weekends thinking and hacking on specific problems. I feel that the author's post doesn't apply in my case, because: - Some of the problems i work on are amazing. They're interesting and fun, and i enjoy them outside the normal "work hours". - Twitter has an "un…

> Twitter has an "unlimited"—be respectful to your team—holiday policy. I've probably taken about 6-7 weeks off in my one and a quarter years here. Curious as to how these things work in the states. I take it that you pay for the time off from your salary? (E.g. you don't get any for the period) Do you have any time off that is paid by your employer?

It is entirely paid time off.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#68

Post by potatolicious » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 10:00 AM UTC

latch wrote: post #52

potatolicious wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only impractical in a poor job market. I take it you write code? As a fellow Canadian, I have only one suggestion: get the fuck out of Canada. The market for programmers is piss poor, the selection of jobs anemic and mostly drudge-work monkeying. There are other geographies that offer much more interesting work, double-to-triple Canadian salaries, and a strong enough employment scene that nobody can hold much ov…

I was in Canada for most of my life. I'm in Asia now. I agree, getting the heck out of Canada is a good idea. None of this is about me. I just think the article really comes off quite sheltered..."I can do what I want and who cares if I get fired, so should you!"

> "I just think the article really comes off quite sheltered..."I can do what I want and who cares if I get fired, so should you!"

I don't see that sentiment in the post.

There are two takeaways for me from the post:

1 - You have more chips to play with than you know, particularly in this industry. We're not fighting over factory line work here, we're people with a highly coveted skill set that is (at least for now) at incredibly high demand world-wide. Abusive employers would like for you to believe that you have no choice but to submit, but in reality people in our line of work have an almost comically absurd number of options right now. If you are programming and dealing with this, you probably don't actually have to, and your fears of getting fired and unable to find other work are likely unfounded.

"You're going to get fired if you don't submit to my unreasonable demands, and you're lucky to have a job at all!" is usually a scam. Triply, quadruply true for our field.

2 - If you do find yourself in a position where your freedom to say "fuck you" to an abusive employer is compromised (no other jobs in the area, collapsing industry, etc), you need to get yourself away from that kill-zone as quickly as humanly possible. If you need to retrain your skillset, do so. This is a problem that will never correct itself, and you can get out. If you have high expenses that limit your savings rate, and thus your unemployment runway, do something about it. Your employment mobility is the negotiation leverage in this line of work, and you should never do anything to compromise this (like, say, take out an unwisely large mortgage).

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#69

Post by x5315 » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 10:01 AM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #66

x5315 wrote: post #21

I work at Twitter, where i regularly work longs hours (my standard work day is something like 10 - 19:30) and am frequently on call. I even spend time at the weekends thinking and hacking on specific problems. I feel that the author's post doesn't apply in my case, because: - Some of the problems i work on are amazing. They're interesting and fun, and i enjoy them outside the normal "work hours". - Twitter has an "un…

I think most people don't mind when there's some kind of flexibility or give-and-take. But there are also jobs that will just plain suck you dry and never give you anything for all the effort you pour into them.

I agree, but I'm not sure that the article's absolutist view is best.

I used that quote to mean that if you're not happy, then you should change that.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#70

Post by nostrademons » Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 10:02 AM UTC

jac_no_k wrote: post #43

This doesn't work when one works in a multi-national company. My colleagues in other locations will eat my lunch because they are less concerned about work/life balance and a lot more hungry.

That's when you work smarter, not harder.

I've found that the biggest benefit of working reasonable hours is that it gives you time & energy to self-reflect and look at your process as a whole. Most work processes have inefficiencies that can be eliminated if you look at the process as a whole. If you do that, you can easily accomplish more in 6 hours than your colleagues in other locations can in 12. That in turn gives you more time to invest in other process improvements and tools, which in turn let you accomplish still more, and so on.