Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#151

Post by Eumenes » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #36

Eumenes wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are effective indeed, esp. as political donations go - who would've thought the carpenters union donates more to political initiatives than Oracle? https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/top-organizat...

This doesn't seem shocking to me? Per [0] Oracle has ~100,000 employees and $6B in income. Per [1] the United Brotherhood of Carpenters has ~500,000 members; per [2] (yes, I'm aware this doesn't cover all of the occupations represented by the union, and some members will not be in the US) they have a mean income of ~$60,000, meaning the total income represented by the union could be ~$30B. That the union barely edges…

Yeah but Oracle is a for-profit corporation and the union is funded by workers ... That money should be going to improve pay, benefits, working conditions, etc. Not funding political campaigns for causes the workers may not even support (its actually really difficult to even find out what/whom the Carpenter union is funding, just vague PACs). I'd rather see that money go back to the workers. Unions should disclose, if they don't already, how their money is spent (and not just 1 line item on their paycheck).

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#152

Post by moi2388 » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

martin8412 wrote: post #108

LatteLazy wrote: post #3

Sounds like Apple won this no? They prevented the union, which has given up, and their only punishment is to be told to stop doing something they should not have been doing anyway.

Start giving fines as percentages of worldwide revenue like the EU does. Suddenly union busting won't seem to attractive if it costs 1% of worldwide revenue.

Yes, and indeed use revenue rather than profit like it is now, since now they still make profits and have zero incentive to stop doing what they’re doing.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#153

Post by smoldesu » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

sidewndr46 wrote: post #147

smoldesu wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The precedent is that the NLRB has issued a warning past this point. Apple can respond however they want, but this is their shot across the bow.

But to my knowledge an NLRB warning is no effect. It isn't like after the 3rd warning, Apple enters Chapter 7 bankruptcy automatically. If I was Apple's legal counsel, I'd be telling them we won this round.

You don't win any fight that ends in a concession. Apple was instructed to cease-and-desist; if they continue along their current path, they could be held liable for violating federal labor laws.

Their legal council is probably doing the same thing they did with the Uighur labor allegations and the Foxconn suicides - begging Apple to denounce it publicly and blame each instance rather than admit systemic abuse. It's pretty much all Apple knows at this point.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#154

Post by derefr » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

KennyBlanken wrote: post #122

hourago wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they will even break the law This is probably true in the USA, as that laws seem to not be enforced. But if you enforce employee's protection laws companies will respect them.

Walmart is infamous for shutting down stores that unionize. This can be particularly devastating to the community because Walmart's whole schtick is to wipe out every other business in the area through "dumping" - flooding the market with stuff sold at a loss until they drive the other companies out of business. So not only do a lot of people in town / the county lose their jobs, but they lose the only place to shop…

Seems like the best game-theoretic strategy for small towns, would be to unionize whatever particular type of retail worker Walmart uses in advance, as a prophylactic to prevent Walmart from ever coming to town.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#155

Post by InitialLastName » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 7:35 PM UTC

Eumenes wrote: post #151

InitialLastName wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem shocking to me? Per [0] Oracle has ~100,000 employees and $6B in income. Per [1] the United Brotherhood of Carpenters has ~500,000 members; per [2] (yes, I'm aware this doesn't cover all of the occupations represented by the union, and some members will not be in the US) they have a mean income of ~$60,000, meaning the total income represented by the union could be ~$30B. That the union barely edges…

Yeah but Oracle is a for-profit corporation and the union is funded by workers ... That money should be going to improve pay, benefits, working conditions, etc. Not funding political campaigns for causes the workers may not even support (its actually really difficult to even find out what/whom the Carpenter union is funding, just vague PACs). I'd rather see that money go back to the workers. Unions should disclose, i…

By that argument, Oracle is owned by shareholders, so that money should be either getting reinvested or returned to the shareholders, not funding political campaigns that their shareholders may not even support. (The rest of your comment can be similarly reinterpreted).

In reality, both organizations know that at the scale they operate (super-national), one of the legitimate means to advocate for their constituents' interests is to ~~bribe lawmakers~~ make political contributions, so they dedicate some of their resources to that.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#156

Post by sidewndr46 » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 7:52 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #153

sidewndr46 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to my knowledge an NLRB warning is no effect. It isn't like after the 3rd warning, Apple enters Chapter 7 bankruptcy automatically. If I was Apple's legal counsel, I'd be telling them we won this round.

You don't win any fight that ends in a concession. Apple was instructed to cease-and-desist; if they continue along their current path, they could be held liable for violating federal labor laws. Their legal council is probably doing the same thing they did with the Uighur labor allegations and the Foxconn suicides - begging Apple to denounce it publicly and blame each instance rather than admit systemic abuse. It's…

Issuing a cease and desist letter to a serial union buster is like telling Ted Bundy he needs to stop killing people. He probably agrees, but certainly isn't going to stop.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#157

Post by philwelch » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 7:54 PM UTC

pierat wrote: post #131

philwelch wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly wasn’t expecting to see a rousing defense of terrorism and violence on Hacker News today.

Let me make this blatantly clear. I am not advocating "shooting up the bosses house", arson, assault, etc. I AM advocating education, by both employees and companies' legal council. Go study your union history. Teach it to colleagues. Understand your rights as non-union worker and union worker. And, unionize. (A company would consider that violent, given how they respond with illegal actions.) And, you'd be surprised…

> Let me make this blatantly clear. I am not advocating "shooting up the bosses house", arson, assault, etc.

So what did you mean by "Maybe they should be reminded?"

> I AM advocating education, by both employees and companies' legal council.

Reminding people of the "history" that violence and terrorism have (occasionally, arguably) been effective still comes across as an implicit threat. If you were advocating violence but trying to disingenuously pretend otherwise, you would have used the exact same words. I can and will assume good faith here, but you need to be a lot more careful about the implications of what you're saying here. Moreover, that kind of rhetoric normalizes the use of violence and terrorism to achieve social/economic/political goals.

At any rate, while we are having a dispassionate discussion of history, I would also point out that violence doesn't always work out for the left/labor side of the equation. Sometimes populists use public fear of that terrorism to justify right-wing authoritarian regimes. Sometimes those regimes start throwing the leftists out of helicopters. Sometimes catastrophic world wars break out between leftist-revolutionary dictatorships and right-populist dictatorships. And to me, the moral of that long and bloody story is that you do not normalize or advocate violence as a means of achieving social/economic/political goals.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#158

Post by johnnyanmac » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 8:00 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #91

randomdata wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone really think corporate anti-union talking points are in their workers' best interest? Sure. What do the C-suite employees stand to gain from it other than a whole new set of headaches when they have to deal with the union?

Ideally more consistent and reliable workers, since they should be less likely to need multiple jobs to cover healthcare and rent.

"No one wants to work anymore" - [Insert most hated C exec here who has never gone hungry or had to worry about rent]

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#159

Post by johnnyanmac » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

aksss wrote: post #141

ethbr0 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Companies hate unions because they increase labor costs and benefits. Does anyone really think corporate anti-union talking points are in their workers' best interest? Unions have their faults (e.g. bureaucracy), but corporations aren't fighting them for their employees' benefit.

> Unions have their faults (e.g. bureaucracy) Corruption, protecting shit employees from being fired, seniority preference over merit, politics, wage caps for individual contributors (not just wage floors), dues, inefficient administrative overhead, to name a few others. For a lot of workers, especially knowledge workers and pro services, the value proposition doesn’t make sense. Companies fight unions for the effici…

>For a lot of workers, especially knowledge workers and pro services, the value proposition doesn’t make sense.

yeah, there's no needs for unions in tech. The most ambitious are spending 2-3 years at a job, switching jobs, and getting 20%+ pay raises as well as negotiating stock benefits and all the like. A union would do nothing for that kind of worker that they can't do in a matter of weeks by walking.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#160

Post by mcpackieh » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 8:08 PM UTC

RobT7k wrote: post #146

mcpackieh wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple stores are a very substandard way of offering/providing support. Here is my real world example: I'm visiting my parents in suburban Pennsylvania when my laptop dies. I just looked up the nearest Apple Store, it's a 45 minute drive one-way, it would take an hour and a half in the car total just to get there, probably about $10 of gasoline too. Thankfully I had a Dell, so I called in the issue and later that day…

Soo, your dell laptop died, and you decided to checkout how far away an Apple Store was? That's a very odd thing to do. Apple Stores aren't the only way that Apple offers support, it's one of many. Just because it didn't happen to be convenient for one of your scenarios doesn't mean it's not convenient for thousands of others. Also, from what I can tell, Onsite warranty support is a paid upgrade for Dells, not a defa…

> Soo, your dell laptop died, and you decided to checkout how far away an Apple Store was? That's a very odd thing to do.

Since I am comparing the two, it's not odd in the slightest. You're just trying to "gotcha" me without responding to the substance of my claim. To reiterate, making customers drive to an Apple store that is probably a fair distance away is substandard service. Having a repair technician come to you is the standard by which Apple's service should be judged. If Dell can do it, so could Apple. (I never buy upgraded service contracts, the Dell service was standard.)

And again, 30 minute bus ride to get to the Apple store in Seattle of all places. There is no Apple store in downtown Seattle. Apple Stores are a bad joke.