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Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

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Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#31

Post by BadassFractal »

rickmb wrote: post #27
cletus wrote: post #7

This is a rant that's a bit all over the place. The author points out a lot of exceptions (eg working at a startup or somewhere where you might get something out of it). If you take out all those exceptions, you basically end up with the crap jobs. The real problems with a crap job isn't the unpaid overtimes... it's that it's a crap jobs . The fact is though, you get as much out of pretty much anything in life as you…

In the real world, there aren't only great jobs and crap jobs. Most jobs are just jobs. Period. You put in work, you get paid. It's not horrible, it's not always great fun either, but it's neither awesome nor crap. This is what most people do for a living. If you call that "stagnating" or "crap", you missed out half the point of the post: that the majority of people don't live to work, they work to live. They don't e…

If you live your work life, say from when you're 25 to 65, working from 9 to 5 on something that you don't really care about but you do just to pay the bills, aren't those 75,000 hours of your life you flushed down the toilet?

That's almost half of your adult life, if you exclude sleep, that you throw away just so you can "enjoy" the other 8 hours a day you have. I personally have failed miserably to be happy with my life if my 8 hours of work a day sucked or were mediocre, I want all of my waking hours to have meaning. Not everybody has that luxury, but I feel it's something we should all strive for.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#32

Post by URSpider94 »

mefistofele wrote: post #12

Many industries are forbidden, by law, from unpaid overtime. The law specifically exempts the software industry from this requirement. Like so many other things about the culture here, this issue seems to come down to the US being afraid of its own shadow. We're the greatest country on Earth... we say so all the time. But to change the law and forbid unpaid overtime for the software industry, something that will make…

According to the GAO, approximately 25 percent of the work force is overtime-exempt. Though computer-related jobs are called out specifically in the law, programmers would also likely be exempted from overtime as "professionals", in any case. I don't think that the overtime exemption for programmers has anything to do with fear of losing jobs overseas, in that most programmers make SUBSTANTIALLY more than the minimum wage. If employers were forced to pay overtime, then they would just reduce base salaries accordingly.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#33

Post by ngokevin »

Coming from a student, for those who might really enjoy the project they are working on and have a comfortable enough lifestyle to not worry about money, working more is its own reward. I am only paid for a maximum of 20 hours a week though I work more than that since I enjoy working.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#34

Post by bad_user »

latch wrote: post #26

This is stupid. Why? Because you are getting legal advice from someone who isn't a lawyer. The spirit of his post is fine, but the reality, for a lot of people, is very different. In Ontario, the Employment Standards Act, which defines all of this (and a lot more) has a ton of exemptions. Here's the exemptions for "Information Technology Professionals": http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/tools/srt/coverage_go...…

Regardless of what is legal or not, you do have the right to seek another employer (if not, then you really are some sort of slave) and your employer is also free to either accept your employment terms or find somebody else.

So if you're valuable to the company enough that seeking a replacement costs a lot more, then the employer will probably accept that overtime is not an option and if not then you've got options to consider.

Employees should really learn to use capitalism to their advantage.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#35

Post by dinkumthinkum »

cletus wrote: post #7

This is a rant that's a bit all over the place. The author points out a lot of exceptions (eg working at a startup or somewhere where you might get something out of it). If you take out all those exceptions, you basically end up with the crap jobs. The real problems with a crap job isn't the unpaid overtimes... it's that it's a crap jobs . The fact is though, you get as much out of pretty much anything in life as you…

Those crap jobs are jobs that most people have to pay their bills. No everybody can live on Ramen noodles and the probability of success for a startup is fairly low. Honestly, anything that is not a startup is a crap job? Then once your startup actually gets off the ground, all your non-vested employees are basically working a crap job, right?

Most of us here are either involved in or want to be involved in a startup but that's not how it is for every programmer out there and we should remind ourselves of that.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#36

Post by dinkumthinkum »

x5315 wrote: post #21

I work at Twitter, where i regularly work longs hours (my standard work day is something like 10 - 19:30) and am frequently on call. I even spend time at the weekends thinking and hacking on specific problems. I feel that the author's post doesn't apply in my case, because: - Some of the problems i work on are amazing. They're interesting and fun, and i enjoy them outside the normal "work hours". - Twitter has an "un…

Right, if it is something you actually want to be doing then that is one thing. But, I bet you are not married and have kids or if you do, they may not be as happy with you as you might think. It's just reality.

As for the Steve Jobs thing, yes I get that. But it's one thing to be Steve Jobs and have this legacy that they make documentaries about and it's another to have just been a cog, even if it's a popular company like Twitter, your whole life and not have any kind of family or life outside of your job. Perhaps everlasting glory is worth everything else but I doubt it's true for everyday programmers at Apple.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#37

Post by toadi »

BadassFractal wrote: post #31
rickmb wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the real world, there aren't only great jobs and crap jobs. Most jobs are just jobs. Period. You put in work, you get paid. It's not horrible, it's not always great fun either, but it's neither awesome nor crap. This is what most people do for a living. If you call that "stagnating" or "crap", you missed out half the point of the post: that the majority of people don't live to work, they work to live. They don't e…

If you live your work life, say from when you're 25 to 65, working from 9 to 5 on something that you don't really care about but you do just to pay the bills, aren't those 75,000 hours of your life you flushed down the toilet? That's almost half of your adult life, if you exclude sleep, that you throw away just so you can "enjoy" the other 8 hours a day you have. I personally have failed miserably to be happy with my…

Tell that to the people cleaning after you in the office. The people picking up your trash or the millions of other jobs that pay the bill.

Now if we are only talking in the domain of information workers. There is still CRUD to be developed or the 1 millionth website designed or other boring business logic to be developed.

I got this questions many times if you win the lottery would you still be doing your job. Hell no and I love my job. But there are other things I enjoy even more...

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#38

Post by moocow01 »

crander wrote: post #29
mefistofele wrote: post #12

Many industries are forbidden, by law, from unpaid overtime. The law specifically exempts the software industry from this requirement. Like so many other things about the culture here, this issue seems to come down to the US being afraid of its own shadow. We're the greatest country on Earth... we say so all the time. But to change the law and forbid unpaid overtime for the software industry, something that will make…

Programmers here are discussing if they choose to work unpaid extra hours or not. You don't make a country great by forbidding extra work regardless of the employee desires. You make a country great by allowing employers and employees to decide amongst themselves case by case. If labor wants to forbid this for other vocations good for them. I would like to keep my right to work more hours on salary or not.

Nobody is forbidding overtime work - they are exempting tech employees from receiving pay for the overtime they work. Much of this legislation was passed in the US through the lobbying of big tech corporations (Microsoft) to increase profit margins. I personally would like to revoke my right to work overtime for free.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#40

Post by latch »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #30
latch wrote: post #26

This is stupid. Why? Because you are getting legal advice from someone who isn't a lawyer. The spirit of his post is fine, but the reality, for a lot of people, is very different. In Ontario, the Employment Standards Act, which defines all of this (and a lot more) has a ton of exemptions. Here's the exemptions for "Information Technology Professionals": http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/tools/srt/coverage_go...…

It's good thing you're not a lawyer because nothing he said violated the law or a contract. :) Unless I missed it, the only thing he discussed relating to laws was how other countries dealt with this sort of thing. Refusing to work unpaid hours is just fine, perhaps you will be fired, but it is definitely you're right but no boogeyman is going to come and lock you up for banging out mindless Java code to meet some un…

First, he suggests that no one should work overtime, which isn't practical for people who can't afford to get fired. Second, he suggest that there's no benefit to working over time, while many would see keeping your job as a benefit.

I'm not sure if he realizes that refusal to work overtime can, in itself, be a reason to get fired, or if that consequence simply doesn't matter to him. Either way, saying that they shouldn't matter to any one else is incorrect.

Also, the entire health care angle is weird. Both Canada and UK have public health care, but both work a lot of overtime:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4149835.stm http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Unpaid+overtime+grow...

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