Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been in the reverse, an autoclave large enough to hold an entire spacecraft. That was already engineering on a scale that defied my imagination considerably, doing the same at the level where an entire sub could be pressurized to 400 atmospheres is engineering on a different plane. I don't think you could do this any cheaper/easier than just strapping it to a tether and dropping it overboard in a very deep part…
Gosh, that's one big autoclave. As you say, a sub tank would be even more of a monster bit of engineering. They do exist for more normal depths but I'm not sure if there are civilian / rentable sub test tanks for this kind of ultra deep stuff.
Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
621–630 of 649 posts
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#622Earlier quoted context omitted.
>sealed from the outside >no location beacon Wtf is anyone thinking getting in this thing?
The set of people that would enter an experimental sub to visit the titanic, and the ones that would do it with a craft that is bolted shut from the outside, is probably close to even.
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#623Earlier quoted context omitted.
In submersible tech, just beneath the surface is 0-30m depth basically (for salt water). Cellphones signals are about 2m max while higher frequencies (eg 2.4GHz) drop off exponentially so are <1m
Antennea can trivially extend over 30m, and can float on the surface. As a wire attached to an inflatable float, for either bidirectional communication or as a GPS beacon, or both, the complete solution could exist for less than $10k and less than 10 kilograms to solve this. Why doesn't this exist for this craft that can only be openned from the outside?? There exists the ability to communicate from directly above, s…
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#624This appears to be the vessel in question: https://oceangate.com/our-subs/titan-submersible.html Pressure hull made from titanium and carbon fiber, capable of diving to 4000m (13,000 ft). I recall that one reason SpaceX switched from carbon fiber to stainless steel pressure vessels (fuel tanks) was the difficulty of detecting structural flaws. Can any engineers comment on whether that task is easier for a vessel expo…
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#625Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's pretty much the exact opposite of designing a spacecraft.
Then let me amend what I wrote: It's as difficult as designing a spacecraft, because you reach the limits of what materials that can be used can offer.
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#626This appears to be the vessel in question: https://oceangate.com/our-subs/titan-submersible.html Pressure hull made from titanium and carbon fiber, capable of diving to 4000m (13,000 ft). I recall that one reason SpaceX switched from carbon fiber to stainless steel pressure vessels (fuel tanks) was the difficulty of detecting structural flaws. Can any engineers comment on whether that task is easier for a vessel expo…
The reason why I don’t think COPVs are a good design for an external pressure application is the load direction; carbon fiber tow doesn’t really do well maintaining an external load. Think back to the watermelon example; apply an increased external pressure and the rubber bands really don’t help with withstanding that increased pressure.
Carbon fiber itself is very difficult to verify that you have the correct properties once they're wound onto the tank. The properties are anisotropic meaning depending on the direction of the fiber you’re gonna get different mechanical properties. Defects like delamination (when a wind unwraps) or voids between the tank wall and fiber are common if you don’t have a qualified winding operation and really really good procedures. In short, while not needing software, repeatability in manufacturing a COPV is incredibly difficult. Part of the reason SpaceX switched to metal tanks is that the mechanical properties of stainless actually increase in a cryogenic environment so there’s an added benefit.
In 2016, SpaceX’s Falcon 9 carrying AMOS-6 exploded during a routine static fire due to a buckled liner of a COPV on the 2nd stage LOX tank. The liner buckled which created a void between the liner and the fiber overwrap which then developed solid oxygen (or an ingress of LOX) that initiated an explosion due to friction. Falcon 9 had been flying for 6 years at that point so I’d consider that a pretty mature or at least an “operational” vehicle so for it to explode on the pad like that is how tricky COPVs can be.
EDIT: Spelling and clarification on delamination
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#627Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've had some work in designing vessels to take external pressure. It's fundamentally a nonlinear problem. A lot of new(and some not so new) engineers don't understand the process of solving it properly For instance, euler buckling is the simple eigenvalue problem of solving a column in compression. But, it misses: initial defect because nothing is truly straight, material nonlinear effects if the part approaches yie…
That’s sounds crazy complicated. In engineering is it like software design where you can get very far just being bad? Like do companies hire just crap engineers who don’t know all this stuff and call it a day? (Kind of like hiring offshore to build mvp for cheapiest crappiest quality possible)
Combine that with a healthy safety factor to cover the unknowable (internal material structure, etc) and you're generally safe.
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#628Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been in the reverse, an autoclave large enough to hold an entire spacecraft. That was already engineering on a scale that defied my imagination considerably, doing the same at the level where an entire sub could be pressurized to 400 atmospheres is engineering on a different plane. I don't think you could do this any cheaper/easier than just strapping it to a tether and dropping it overboard in a very deep part…
Gosh, that's one big autoclave. As you say, a sub tank would be even more of a monster bit of engineering. They do exist for more normal depths but I'm not sure if there are civilian / rentable sub test tanks for this kind of ultra deep stuff.
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#629Earlier quoted context omitted.
" Goliath Awaits is a 1981 American made-for-television action adventure science fiction thriller... about an ocean liner sunk by a German U-boat in 1939 whose wreck is discovered in 1981, with over 300 survivors and their descendants living in an air bubble inside the ship."[1] Watched it as a kid, and it definitely stuck in my head. Quite impressive cast. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_Awaits
And the movie is in the public domain, so you can stream it on the the internet archive! https://archive.org/details/goliathawaits1981
Re: Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way
#630Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the movie is in the public domain, so you can stream it on the the internet archive! https://archive.org/details/goliathawaits1981
is it really? the wikipedia article says it was first broadcast in 1981