Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering • Hacker News Board

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#891

Post by relbeek2 » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

AntonyGarand wrote: post #859

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The use of the controller is symptomatic of their attitude https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military... https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/us-military-video-ga... https://www.pyrosoft.co.uk/blog/2007/11/04/army-fly-uav-spy-...

Xbox controllers are way ahead of low-end logitech controllers though, so the point stands: If you want to control the device using a controller, might as well pick a good reliable one instead of the cheapest option available.

I worked for a defense contractor, and we had initial plans for a contractor to build us a wireless controller. Their controller was an ugly box-shaped controller that they wanted to charge us 200k. I redesigned the architecture of our system so that we could use an Xbox controller instead.

There is no reason why these controllers can't be used over some other "industrial" controller, as long as you design the system appropriately to account for failures, which you should be doing regardless of what controller you select.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#892

Post by somenameforme » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:47 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #841

somenameforme wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the video [1] mentions, they were only improvising on things (including the controller) that would not pose a safety hazard if they failed. The critical components like the capsule were designed alongside NASA and others. People aren't just tossing safety to the wind, but trying to create a better balance. NASA does spend a extreme amount of money on compliance and safety - yet that doesn't prevent them from doi…

The critical components like the capsule were designed alongside NASA I saw that claim, and wondered what it entailed. The founder is clearly in the mold of testing mission-critical/life or death systems in production, while skirting or floating the rules. Such a claim is like one of those logos you see on the front of software start ups home pages, claiming some usage by Google, MIT, or CERN, without any verificatio…

Their release is here [1]. The NASA tracking number is SAA8-2031655. The agreement started in 2020, and concluded in 2022. One of the guys on board the sub is Stockton Rush, the founder/owner of the company. He clearly believes (or believed as it may ultimately be) in the product they created, and wasn't just casually playing games for bucks.

I would largely tune the media out on this. They have no more special insight than you or I. All that's known is that a sub has gone dark; everything else is speculation. Within 3 days we'll know for certain whether the people on the ship have been rescued, or are dead. In case it's the latter, we won't have any realistic idea of what happened until the sub, or its remains, are recovered. And that may simply not happen.

[1] - https://www.oceangate.com/news-and-media/press-releases/2020...

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#893

Post by lb1lf » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:47 PM UTC

weird-eye-issue wrote: post #851

lb1lf wrote: post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The capsule itself is positively buoyant. As long as it can jettison the ballast (and is not tangled up in something on the seabed, say, the Titanic), it will come to the surface.

Right, so you need the ballast. Which is not inherently part of the capsule. Which proves my point.

Well, you need to be able to change the weight of the capsule somehow, otherwise you'd be stuck bobbing at the surface. (Or at the seabed).

The puzzling bit, from what I have gathered, is that the ballast is not fail safe.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#894

Post by iancmceachern » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:48 PM UTC

SahAssar wrote: post #721

iancmceachern wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here: https://www.cpsc.gov/content/bicycle-requirements-business-g...

That is not globally enforced.

Most standard aren't. Gwrmany has DIN, Japan has JST, we have ANSI, etc.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#895

Post by toss1 » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:52 PM UTC

brutusborn wrote: post #473

toss1 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not authoritarian to regulate things like safety for the general public. It is a necessary component of a complex society. The main distinction between a self-determined vs authoritarian govt is the independence or lack thereof of all of the govt and society's institutions, including he legislative, executive, & judicial branches of govt, and in general society the press, industry, academy, religious orgs,…

This is not the general public, this is a few adventurers. Very different. Also, desiring to give up power to an authority is authoritarianism (at least according to Oxford): “ the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.”

>>strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom

And that goal cannot be achieved as long as there is 1) rule of law and 2) broadly independent branches of govt and societal institutions. A wannabe autocrat cannot successfully infringe on personal freedoms if (s)he cannot get the legislature, judiciary, press, etc. to go along with it.

And I totally get adventurism, having been an internal-level alpine ski racer, rock climbing instructor, champion sportscar racer, etc.

The key here is how much these "adventurers" are putting the rest of society at risk. Because, right this minute, you (if you are a US or Canadian resident) and I are paying $$millions for the rescue/recovery of the asshat CEO and his four sucker customers.

I think a better regulatory solution may be to require putting up a bond covering the cost of rescue and/or cleanup if something goes awry, or sign-off that there would be no rescue attempt whatsoever (and a bond to cover cleanup of a historic site). But it is not authoritarian to say that "No, we won't allow such adventures without meeting sound safety and systems standards."

These clowns didn't even want to pay to qualify the window in the sub past 1/3 of the planned operating depth, they had not even an emergency signal buoy, or some way of making/emitting a unique sound so they could be quickly located (Canadian sonobuoys detected some clanging sounds yesterday, but they are still not found).

If society really wants any dolt to fabricate any contraption and expect the rest of society to pay to rescue them, that is a societal decision. But it is also totally ok to say NO to that, or put on some basic requirements.

These are neither slippery slopes nor authoritarianism, and it is wrong to cry "authoritarianism" at any rule you might not like; it can be legitimately discussed without catastrophizing.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#896

Post by _ea1k » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:54 PM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #657

liminalsunset wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guidance and control system seems to run on a GTK (?) app running on what looks like Ubuntu 10.04. An HDMI cable can be seen running to the monitor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc&t=33s If I had to take a random guess, this system is probably some form of an embedded Atom/Geode type device (if not just a notebook PC) with some CAN or RS485/422/232 interfaces attached via USB.

Trusting your life to Bluetooth on Linux. Ouch.

Yeah, I had the same thought. I really hope they had more of a safety plan than that.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#897

Post by reddit_refugee3 » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:57 PM UTC

TheCondor wrote: post #853

truemotive wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really frustrated by anyone that poo-poos this specific issue. One shall absolutely fucking obsess, me for instance about the game controller they used. Look at this. https://i.imgur.com/FrdR7TP.png So the F710 Logitech gamepad was something I wouldn't even trust as a teenager to let me play emulated retro games accurately. It has a hardware switch to toggle between DirectInput (an ancient input technology within…

>> This controller is a metaphor for something This all will be better discussed after the recovery or memorials or whatever (Godspeed to them, I honestly hope for a miracle) This metaphor is extremely double edged, especially in Silicon Valley ethos. When it fails, everyone piles on about the game controller and the lack of ‘flight worthiness.’ When it works they are lauded as heroes because of the extreme savings o…

>Space and the deep sea are the extreme limits, I think ‘regulation’ is really difficult because it is risky no matter who does it.

But this is why regulations exist in the first place. That's like saying we shouldn't regulate surgery, because it's always risky.

We should require certain credentials and safety measures for people who want to take civilians to the ocean floor in a tiny sub. I don't think that should be a controversial take.

The onus to make sure that a service they are going to use isn't any more dangerous than it has to be, shouldn't be on the consumer. I don't want to live in a society that thinks it's acceptable to hand-wave death and suffering away as if human lives are acceptable collateral in the "free market" correcting itself.

Customers would still understand that the thing they're going to do is super dangerous, but they should be able to rest easy knowing that the company they're using for this meets some minimal level of safety.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#898

Post by toss1 » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:59 PM UTC

brutusborn wrote: post #517

wpietri wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not different. "OceanGate intends to make underwater exploration cheaper and accessible to private citizens", says Wikipedia. And the people on it look, aside from their wealth, like members of the general public to me. They have no particular knowledge or skill, so I don't think they have an expert's ability to evaluate the risks.

How would you propose regulators determine if a person is skilled or knowledgeable enough to evaluate the risks?

There exist entire bodies of knowledge about ensuring that equipment meets the physical requirements of the intended use, that the systems are designed to fail in a safe(r) mode and have redundancies in case of failures, that processes are created to operate more accident-free and also recover from accidents, and the ability to manage and mitigate risk in general. These come from centuries of seafaring and aeronautics and decades of spacefaring.

It is all there, and just because you don't know about it and I cannot recite it all off the top of my head does not mean that it doesn't exist and that it could not be implemented. Regulators know how to find the right people to evaluate the risks and set suitable requirements. (That said, in some industries, regulatory capture and corruption is a real problem, but it does not seem to be the case here.)

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#899

Post by mrweasel » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

hasmolo wrote: post #850

twic wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a carbon fibre fork on my bike. I had a low-speed accident a few years ago, and took the bike to a mechanic to get it checked out afterwards. He said he'd checked everything, and it was fine - except the fork, which he had no way of telling if was undamaged or about to fail. I think i'll get steel next time.

this isn't true anymore. you can get carbon bikes scanned after and accident to find any internal damage. Ruckus in Portland, OR is where i've shipped to before with luck, but there's a lot more local options now depending on the scene

Out of curiosity, does that actually work out financially, or is it really cheap or are carbon forks really expensive?

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#900

Post by Eisenstein » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #873

Eisenstein wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but that doesn't work in a reasonable society. You can't let just anyone do anything they want with the repercussions being 'they don't get rescued'. A few points: * You can't let rescue services decide who deserves to be rescued -- for so many obvious reasons it would be patronizing to list them * People with a lot of money and no sense can fuck things up on a massive scale if we let them do whatever they want…

In the general case that is more or less accurate. There are however a bunch of exceptions in the extreme case. Rescue services do have a point where they will decide not to continue. During the Tham Luang cave rescue (the thai football boys that got stuck in a cave) there was a period where the rescue services decided that continuing was just too dangerous. It was only because of a handful private cave divers was cr…

> We could argue that those risky activities should be illegal (or shamed), but the counter argument is that a lot of activities are just inherently risky.

There are always going to be distinctions. We allow motorcycles but we don't allow motorized wheelbarrows, or unicycles that can go 60mph. Why? History and tradition, practicality -- whatever the reason, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense and it surely wasn't designed that way. No one makes the standards to which we hold people -- but we are allowed to complain when we don't feel they are in line with a healthy society.