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Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

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Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#851

Post by weird-eye-issue »

lb1lf wrote: post #801
weird-eye-issue wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the capsule considered the only critical safety component? If everything else fails wouldn't it just fall to the bottom of the ocean? Even if it can survive that depth that only sounds good on paper. Nobody could get to you.

The capsule itself is positively buoyant. As long as it can jettison the ballast (and is not tangled up in something on the seabed, say, the Titanic), it will come to the surface.

Right, so you need the ballast. Which is not inherently part of the capsule. Which proves my point.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#852

Post by weird-eye-issue »

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #779
weird-eye-issue wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the capsule considered the only critical safety component? If everything else fails wouldn't it just fall to the bottom of the ocean? Even if it can survive that depth that only sounds good on paper. Nobody could get to you.

Because an implosion is a single point of failure leading to instant death. Anything else can be salvaged by staying calm and using one of multiple ways to resurface.

Really? Anything else can just be magically salvaged? I'm not sure there is that much room for error 2 miles below the surface

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#853

Post by TheCondor »

truemotive wrote: post #681
major4x wrote: post #666

One shall not obsess with the game controller they use, I suppose, in their analysis, failing the controller wouldn't prevent the sub from resurfacing... It is symptomatic, however. The whole Silicon Valley is like that. You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, rumors go the C code on some NASA rocket was certified at $1000 per line---human eyeballs reading it... All those start-ups and unicorns, th…

I'm really frustrated by anyone that poo-poos this specific issue. One shall absolutely fucking obsess, me for instance about the game controller they used. Look at this. https://i.imgur.com/FrdR7TP.png So the F710 Logitech gamepad was something I wouldn't even trust as a teenager to let me play emulated retro games accurately. It has a hardware switch to toggle between DirectInput (an ancient input technology within…

>> This controller is a metaphor for something

This all will be better discussed after the recovery or memorials or whatever (Godspeed to them, I honestly hope for a miracle)

This metaphor is extremely double edged, especially in Silicon Valley ethos. When it fails, everyone piles on about the game controller and the lack of ‘flight worthiness.’ When it works they are lauded as heroes because of the extreme savings of using proven COTS products. The drone pilots are a great example, some officer got a nutty idea to try a game controller as his command had “more experience” with them and their success rates improved; now we are talking about it.

Space and the deep sea are the extreme limits, I think ‘regulation’ is really difficult because it is risky no matter who does it. In a way, this is the ultimate regulation that is going on here. And we still don’t know what happened or what could have failed yet.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#854

Post by HWR_14 »

truemotive wrote: post #689
raphman wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems your comment is missing a part: There's only one list item - which is truncated: > 1. There had to be a certification process to use the controller, including risk analysis which would absolutely deny any attempt to

Fixed, thanks. I've had a lot of thoughts about this lately. Here's another fun fact: What's wrong with this picture taken while the submersible is out of operation? https://i.imgur.com/lBWlh3i.png Answer: Look underneath the floor. The Altec Lansing ACS33 PowerCube 2.1 speaker system. $35 used on eBay and again from early 2000s era. -> https://i.imgur.com/fVdQ9Pc.png Not safety critical, but so extremely indicative…

Their customers want an adventure. Making it look like it was put together in a basement probably increases the value to their customers, compared to a 17-speaker Bose system. Of course, you would want it to look cheap but be expensive and safe.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#855

Post by bamfly »

truemotive wrote: post #681
major4x wrote: post #666

One shall not obsess with the game controller they use, I suppose, in their analysis, failing the controller wouldn't prevent the sub from resurfacing... It is symptomatic, however. The whole Silicon Valley is like that. You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, rumors go the C code on some NASA rocket was certified at $1000 per line---human eyeballs reading it... All those start-ups and unicorns, th…

I'm really frustrated by anyone that poo-poos this specific issue. One shall absolutely fucking obsess, me for instance about the game controller they used. Look at this. https://i.imgur.com/FrdR7TP.png So the F710 Logitech gamepad was something I wouldn't even trust as a teenager to let me play emulated retro games accurately. It has a hardware switch to toggle between DirectInput (an ancient input technology within…

Yeah, I don't get the "eh, it's not that big a deal" reaction.

That it was a game controller? OK, not necessarily a big deal. Hopefully they'd take two of them just in case, even with a high-quality game controller, but still, might be OK.

That it was a game controller not from one of the major console manufacturers? And a cheap one, at that? I can only assume people not taking that as a serious WTF haven't used many of those lately (by which I mean in the last 15+ years). If you buy from any but a handful of trusted brands, these days—and Logitech ain't one of them, it's almost, but not quite, entirely the three console manufacturers, and the exceptions are not cheap—you can expect the device to suck from day 1 and to die completely within a year, even if subjected to no abuse. You may luck out and it won't, but if you deviate from that guidance, you're very likely buying garbage unsuited even to home use.

If someone told me they bought a $30 Logitech controller for their Playstation emulator box, I'd tell them to buy a Playstation or XBox controller instead when it breaks.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#856

Post by MuffinFlavored »

rob74 wrote: post #747
major4x wrote: post #666

One shall not obsess with the game controller they use, I suppose, in their analysis, failing the controller wouldn't prevent the sub from resurfacing... It is symptomatic, however. The whole Silicon Valley is like that. You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, rumors go the C code on some NASA rocket was certified at $1000 per line---human eyeballs reading it... All those start-ups and unicorns, th…

The use of the controller is symptomatic of their attitude, but I agree that it's probably not as relevant as, say, using an untested (and apparently untestable) carbon fiber hull: > Lochridge’s concerns mainly focused on the company’s decision to rely on sensitive acoustic monitoring – cracking or popping sounds made by the hull under pressure – to detect flaws, rather than a scan of the hull. Lochridge said the com…

> The use of the controller is symptomatic of their attitude

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military...

https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/us-military-video-ga...

https://www.pyrosoft.co.uk/blog/2007/11/04/army-fly-uav-spy-...

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#857

Post by otikik »

tredre3 wrote: post #16
srmarm wrote: post #3

The US Navy uses an Xbox 360 controller in active service [0] Mass market has a lot of R&D to leverage so it makes sense. Nothing to say this is the cause of the fault and probably going to be more reliable than something hand rolled. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military...

I personally believe using mass market makes sense. I don't understand the criticism I've seen on this website for using off the shelf controllers or camping lights (what do you expect, an LED strip magically engineered by a large aeronautics firm specifically for the sub? and what would that change?). That being said, the difference between a Microsoft controller and a third party is that Microsoft very certainly di…

> Microsoft very certainly did a tons of reliability and durability testing on their controllers

I don't think they tested them 2.5 miles underwater though. Even if the cabin is pressurized, electronics can behave differently there.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#858

Post by eropple »

ekianjo wrote: post #837
eropple wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iteration has already been done . Safety rules exist because somebody has died and had it written in their blood. Failure to read the literature gets people killed. This is reckless and it is stupid and excusemaking for it has no moral grounds.

> The iteration has already been done. Excuse me, there are several companies operating submarines that visit the Titanic with tourists?

This is a response that, if made not in jest, is a signal of mendacity.

Submersibles visited the Challenger Deep in the 1960s. We know how to build them, we know how to build them effectively, and we know many of the ways not to build them. "But we added tourists!" is not a meaningful factor here unless what you meant-but-wouldn't-say is "but we value engineered it!" in which case: yes, exactly, that's what safety rules are designed to put guardrails around.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#859

Post by AntonyGarand »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #856
rob74 wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of the controller is symptomatic of their attitude, but I agree that it's probably not as relevant as, say, using an untested (and apparently untestable) carbon fiber hull: > Lochridge’s concerns mainly focused on the company’s decision to rely on sensitive acoustic monitoring – cracking or popping sounds made by the hull under pressure – to detect flaws, rather than a scan of the hull. Lochridge said the com…

> The use of the controller is symptomatic of their attitude https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military... https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/us-military-video-ga... https://www.pyrosoft.co.uk/blog/2007/11/04/army-fly-uav-spy-...

Xbox controllers are way ahead of low-end logitech controllers though, so the point stands: If you want to control the device using a controller, might as well pick a good reliable one instead of the cheapest option available.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#860

Post by rtkwe »

lyu07282 wrote: post #795
rtkwe wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something that can be quickly swapped out if it does fail though being a wired controller, I'd put decent odds on this company not bothering to put a backup controller in their death tube. Also a periscope is less critical to combat in the age of sonar that can tell you bearing, heading and what type of ship often without the risk of surfacing and getting lit up on radar. Modern subs basically never want to surf…

> this company not bothering to put a backup controller in their death tube the really strange part of that, is that the pilot was the CEO of the company. Like the Norfolk Southern CEO would never in a million years set foot on one of their trains of death. Anyhow they now heard sounds in 30minute intervals, so looks like they are still alive down there.

I saw the same thing but some of the groups searching haven't heard that pounding since Monday from the places I read. Does imply it might not have been a catastrophic implosion but honestly that's one of the better ways to go in a submarine. Also there's a lot of noise in the ocean on some other sub rescues they thought they heard noises from the crashed sub but it was just from the boats looking for them.
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