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Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

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Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#341

Post by mplanchard »

nwiswell wrote: post #298
paddw wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem is you can easily trade gold for cash because it is socially acceptable to do so. If Bitcoin became outlawed, it would be very hard to exchange Bitcoin for cash, since it has no extrinsic value outside of being a financial asset (as compared to, for example, barrels of crude oil). That being said, I doubt Bitcoin will be outlawed in the West, and generally agree that it will be around for the long t…

> That being said, I doubt Bitcoin will be outlawed in the West, and generally agree that it will be around for the long term. Well, not entirely without precedent, since private ownership of gold was outlawed nationwide in the US during the Great Depression. It wasn't fully legalized until 1974. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

This is an entirely new fact for me. It’s surprising to me that I’d never heard of this. Thanks for sharing!

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#342

Post by bell-cot »

lmm wrote: post #288
cs702 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison to Madoff is not apt. Madoff hid losses by committing accounting fraud, whereas every single transaction in the Bitcoin network is visible to everyone and, moreover, cryptographically verifiable by everyone. As long as the distributed consensus algorithm continues to function, Bitcoin will continue to exist. Period. (Government regulations cannot kill it; they can only drive it underground, as with gol…

> Anyone who predicts Bitcoin's demise must explain precisely how and why its network would stop functioning. I've been saying for years that Bitcoin will go down like Second Life. Remember when there were news stories about Sony or whoever buys an island for X million dollars? And now... I mean it's still there (presumably), I don't think they've turned off the servers or anything, but no-one cares and it's obviousl…

Second Life is still around, and appears fairly stable with a modest-sized user base: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jun/10/who-needs...

Roughly speaking, the folks "living" in Second Life are part of a strong online community, and don't much care about the "investment".

The sociology and economics of Bitcoin are very, very different from Second Life.

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#343

Post by yazaddaruvala »

Eisenstein wrote: post #127
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #117

I'm not pro crypto exchanges, but does the SEC really live up to this guy's promises? > SEC registration establishes critical requirements that protect investors from individual risk and protect capital markets from global systemic risk. The requirements also make U.S. markets among the safest, most robust, most vibrant and most desirable marketplaces in the world. Does he mean the requirements that continue to allow…

> The requirements also make U.S. markets among the safest, most robust, most vibrant and most desirable marketplaces in the world. ... > Does he mean the requirements that continue to allow dark pools[0]? > or the ones that allow arbitrage (theft?) through low-latency order flow[1], prior to high-latency trade execution? Which markets don't have those?

> In Canada, PFOF is not allowed on Canadian listed securities,[5] so Canadian brokers charge commissions,[8] however, according to the current Canadian securities regulations, brokers can accept PFOF on non-Canadian listed securities.[9] It is also banned in the United Kingdom.[5][10] According to Euronext, European authorities have regulated payment for order flow, and the practice is allowed in a number of national jurisdictions across Europe.[11]

On the wiki page for PFOF

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#344

Post by paulddraper »

anon-3988 wrote: post #335
paulddraper wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. I don't see people using gold for finances within 50km of me, but it's going to be around forever.

And? I am not advocating for gold either. Gold hinges on the fact that its yellow and nice to look at or whatever. It is entirely feasible for the world to be possessed by zeitgeist such that gold or anything yellow doesn't mean particularly much. This could happen, for example, if gold and diamonds can be manufactured artificially. What then?

Then it wouldn't be worth as much and its 10,000+ year run would be over.

PS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rip_Van_Winkle_Caper

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#345

Post by afavour »

snapcaster wrote: post #318
lmm wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who predicts Bitcoin's demise must explain precisely how and why its network would stop functioning. I've been saying for years that Bitcoin will go down like Second Life. Remember when there were news stories about Sony or whoever buys an island for X million dollars? And now... I mean it's still there (presumably), I don't think they've turned off the servers or anything, but no-one cares and it's obviousl…

Presumably you have been saying this for a while and been wrong so far. At what point would you change your mind?

Predicting the demise of something does not mean you are incorrect until the day it collapses.

People have criticised Oceangate’s approach to security for years. By your logic I could have turned around to all of them and said “you’re wrong”, up until a few days ago when the CEO got trapped inside a submarine to die. The people who said their safety approach was a ticking time bomb were right all along, it just took time to be proven out.

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#346

Post by xcv123 »

eli wrote: post #171
cs702 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true for gold too: Most gold transactions happen in exchanges. But the fact that there are successful intermediaries in the gold market is not an argument against gold's viability as a store of value. Ditto for Bitcoin.

I don't think gold is a good investment vehicle nor means of exchanging value either.

Tell that to people who lost their entire life savings when their fiat currency hyper-inflated to zero value (Hungary, Zimbabwe, Yugoslavia, Germany, Argentina)

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#347

Post by yazaddaruvala »

neilparikh wrote: post #277
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #117

I'm not pro crypto exchanges, but does the SEC really live up to this guy's promises? > SEC registration establishes critical requirements that protect investors from individual risk and protect capital markets from global systemic risk. The requirements also make U.S. markets among the safest, most robust, most vibrant and most desirable marketplaces in the world. Does he mean the requirements that continue to allow…

I don't think it's clear that PFOF is bad for retail investors. Many people argue (see Analysis section of the article you posted, and also Matt Levine's writing about it on Money Stuff) that PFOF is actually a net good for retail investors, getting them both price improvement and lower commissions. Also: > In the United States, accepting PFOF is allowed only if no other exchange is quoting a better price on the Nati…

Yeah... so Citadel receives the PFOF from Robinhood before my trade, then Citadel gets access to close my trade at a later millisecond.

Why is that the order it happens in? Maybe, there is no fraud... but really?

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#348

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

lmm wrote: post #332
snapcaster wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably you have been saying this for a while and been wrong so far. At what point would you change your mind?

I don't think I have been wrong? Like I said, the ability to actually buy stuff with Bitcoin is in decline. I'd change my mind if I saw evidence of increasing Bitcoin adoption in the real economy.

[flagged]

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#349

Post by koolba »

chromatin wrote: post #253
thworp wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is an absolutely ass-backwards argument. To be a currency or a store of value or money (read: to be of any use) it has to be exchangeable for goods and services . Now we can see transactions on the blockchain but we have no idea what that transaction was for. *Nobody* can tell you what a bitcoins worth of wheat is without resorting to exchange rates of bitcoin to actual currencies. But because the entire exc…

Nobody can tell you what a gold oz. worth of wheat is without resorting to exchange rates of gold to actual currencies.

We almost had that with oil, but then they killed the guy trying to make it happen.

Re: Former US SEC attorney: 'Get out of crypto platforms now'

#350

Post by polygamous_bat »

lbotos wrote: post #293
darth_avocado wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can live in a real estate investment or grow food on it or run a business in it. Bitcoin is a bunch of 1s and 0s that is same as a blank canvas hung in museum and is priced at $20M. It is essentially useless, but people believe it’s worth something, so it keeps holding value. Until one day, it doesn’t.

I'm not a bitcoin maximalist, but you have to acknowledge that in this day and age that your definition pretty much applies to USD as well. People believe it's worth something. And so it is.

US Dollar has value largely because the United States government is legally obligated to accept it to settle debts.
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