Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#551

Post by KaiserPro » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

wilg wrote: post #540

sangnoir wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not black and white: CCS supports 800V charging, NACS does not (yet). Higher voltage = lower current and lighter cables and less strain on the connectors. Superchargers wete also lagging on liquid-cooled cables, which will be included in v4.

If it's possible for NACS to support 800V charging then that is not really a very meaningful advantage of CCS, is it? I think Tesla themselves will eventually switch to 800v at some point. V3 Superchargers have liquid cooled cables, that's why they are thinner than V2 cables. V4 has even crazier liquid cooling, where the conductors are directly immersed in the coolant.

From what I can see, telsa use CCS2 but with a different plug.

In the EU/UK they have the CCS2 plugs on them, and are compatible with any CCS2 capable car.

(source: me, I used one last week for a non tesla car)

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#552

Post by bombcar » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:13 PM UTC

thatguy0900 wrote: post #417

earthboundkid wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, most apartment dwellers park in a garage, which can and will be retrofitted with chargers. Street parking is the major challenge. In Park Slope Brooklyn, I often see a lone cable coming out of a brownstone out to a Tesla on the street. :-)

What is your stats for most apartment people Park in a garage? Where I live garages cost a hefty amount extra and the apartment complex doesn't even have enough for more than a quarter of the residents anyway

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017...

It's lower for renters (who are more likely in an apartment), but it's still overall decently high.

Every apartment I've lived in had a garage or carport that could easily have had a charger installed (and probably does, by now).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#553

Post by bombcar » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:17 PM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #452

6DM wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, surprisingly there are HoA's that are fighting people that want to install an outlet for their car e.g. town home owners without a garage.

I offered to pay for a charger to be installed in my spot, and the hoa board flat out refused. Granted, they're old , and are probably still upset about the switch to unleaded gasoline...

Keep badgering them each and every month/year until they give in.

Some states are moving to make it illegal for HOAs to prohibit it the way the FCC did with satellite dishes.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#554

Post by bisby » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:17 PM UTC

gibolt wrote: post #494

jeromegv wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been government intervention. https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-open-us-charging-ne...

The government is actually requiring CCS1 (currently) to get that funding. This may change as more dominoes fall as others adopt NACS. Considering that nearly all U.S. manufacturers are now switching off of CCS1, this requirement makes no sense since infrastructure is meant to last.

Are the chargers/ports on cars easy enough to swap out, or are we manufacturing ewaste?

If I were to buy a car with CCS today, and then in 2024, NACS wins, and all cars going forward have NACS, and all charging stations change to NACS as a result... In the year 2030, can I get the port upgraded, are the changing stations obligated to support CCS indefinitely, is there an adapter I can just keep in my car for NACS->CCS that actually works (NACS->CCS is currently not an option... will it become an option?), or is my CCS car just unchargeable?

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#555

Post by bombcar » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #309

agloe_dreams wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also one other detail: There's a hell of a lot more money in the car 'fuel' industry than the car making business. R&D costs are way lower, you don't need that many employees, and you can always charge these third party automakers more. Tesla is going to make bank off these adopters.

The latest rounds of gas convenience stores have gotten more square footage than earlier generations. I suspect they are anticipating indoor seating for charging customers at some point. I’ve also started seeing joint ventures where it’s a proper coffee stand or in one case I can think of an A&W root beer. Gas stations tend to be physically separated from pastimes (what Burger King owner wants diesel fumes in their s…

Gas station stores are moving in on grocery stores.

There's a huge war brewing that most people don't even know about, but once grocery stores started imitating Costco and offering gas, the convenience stores have been firing back by undercutting grocery stores on staples.

Around here they'll even undercut Walmart on dairy and select produce.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#556

Post by vel0city » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:20 PM UTC

breischl wrote: post #514

vel0city wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe Tesla wants to qualify automakers' designs so cars don't cause problems with their charging network, or vice versa. I shouldn't need Exxon and Shell and Phillips and Wawa and Sheetz and whoever to qualify my car to get gas. I shouldn't need Tesla and EA and whoever to qualify my car to get electricity. I don't see how anyone can see that and think its a good thing.

They all need to agree how it's done though. And gas cars were the same - did you think the size and shape of the gas pump nozzle were handed down from God or something? Everyone had to agree on that at some point. Apparently that was in 1930, or around 30 years after cars were invented. https://www.cspdailynews.com/csp-magazine/industry-views-all... We are at that point right now. That is the process happening in fr…

> did you think the size and shape of the gas pump nozzle were handed down from God or something?

No, but you'd just have the fuel tank opening large enough that you can put in any particular handle. And in the end you didn't need Gulf saying this brand or that brand could buy gas, but not that brand. So while there were a lot of different handles before U842, they usually all actually worked with all the different brands and the gas stations didn't have to pre-approve the different cars to get gas there.

I've had a few gas tools and gas tanks which didn't have a gas port that was shaped for a U842 handle and yet I've still managed to fuel them just fine. I didn't need to get Shell's authorization every time I wanted to fuel a Toro.

I'm kind of amazed people think its a good thing for Shell to have the ability to say "no, that brand of car isn't allowed to buy gas here anymore". Imagine if Ford operated most of the pumps in the US and could just decide Toyotas could no longer get gas at the majority of pumps. Sound like a good idea?

Imagine if Tesla operated most of the DCFC dispensers and could just decide Toyotas could no longer get gas at the majority of dispensers? Oh wait, they already made that decision. Despite the majority of Tesla dispensers technically supporting CCS communications a Toyota couldn't possibly charge on most of those dispensers even if they had an adapter, because Toyota and Tesla don't have an agreement.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#557

Post by bombcar » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #300

mkozlows wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about how this is affects Tesla is "compared to what?" Compared to the historic status quo where there were no other chargers, and Tesla had exclusive access to a large-ish proprietary charging network, it looks like Tesla giving up their advantage, and seems bad. But the forward-looking status quo was going to be a gigantic network of CCS chargers that makes Tesla's proprietary network look small, with eve…

My friend who is not an EV driver got stuck with an EV rental (Bolt) for a semi-rural trip and boy was that a ton of drama. I’ve been thinking hard about an EV myself and now I’m looking at PHEVs instead. I’ve gotten a crash course in EV charging around here and it’s not good. Level 2 chargers are not for spontaneous trips and level 1 chargers are fucking pointless. It estimated two and a half days to charge from 40-…

As for your plug, that's cheap and easy to replace (literally the homeowner can do it in most jurisdictions, be safe) - the question is the size of the breaker/wire routed to the plug.

If your breaker is fifty amps, then changing for NEMA 14-50 shouldn't be more than $100-200 even if you hire a master electrician.

If the breaker is NOT fifty amps, then you have to carefully check that the wire is the sized correctly all the way from the box to the outlet (it can LOOK right coming out of the breaker box, and look right going into the outlet box, but somewhere hidden in the walls it changes to an incorrect size).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#558

Post by iknowstuff » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

nilsbunger wrote: post #512

mustacheemperor wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish the government would prod manufacturers to create a common connection That is exactly why this is happening. Tesla is expanding their network and opening it to more manufacturers in pursuit of a $7.5bn federal funding program.[0] >the new rules, issued after nearly eight months of debate...seeks to give consumers unfettered access to a growing coast-to-coast network of EV charging stations, including Tesla's…

But will the CCS be as fast at charging ? It seems like Tesla could control a lot with their proprietary connector if it has a faster charge rate.

The connector is open. Obviously the producer of the charging station can always determine the charge rate regardless of the connector, which is why most EA stations sit out there in a half broken state limited to 120kW.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#559

Post by rasz » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #229

garyfirestorm wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Level 4? Mercedes already beat them to level 3 https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/27/23572942/mercedes-drive-p...

The Mercedes system is a headline system. In that it was designed to generate headlines without actually accomplishing much.

Tesla generates plenty of headlines every time one decapitates a driver or crashes full speed into large pretty much visible from space police/fire truck blinking all of its lights.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#560

Post by grepfru_it » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

cyberax wrote: post #522

speed_spread wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just charging data obviously, it's all the car usage data. Where you go, how fast, with who... And yes, after a few years, the value of that data is worth more than the original profit they made selling the car itself. Its also recurring revenue, they don't even need to sell you a new car to keep making money. There's a reason the Ford CEO declared a few years back that Ford was to become "a data company". T…

> Where you go, how fast, with who.. Where you go can not be inferred from the charging sessions. You can kinda infer the speed, by looking at the state of charger between two sessions. You can't infer with whom you're travelling. Honestly, people always overinflate the usefulness of "data".

Ford will track your entire drive, how you used your car, even the radio station that was playing. All of this data is uploaded when you take your car in for servicing if you do not have a connected car.

OnStar recently (2-3 years ago now?) started feeding 100gbps of telematics data on every single GM car back to GM in an effort to determine better pricing on used cars. Data includes every sensor change on the car and even details from the onboard wireless entertainment system (your wifi device)

These are projects I have worked on. They have an overabundance of data on you and 99% of you fit the model of usefulness