Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#41

Post by Abekkus » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #32

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't legally be deployed in combat situations until they are 18, so I guess they do other stuff. But once they turn 18 they can be ordered into combat based on a decision they made when they were still a child. Recruits can leave up to the end of their first six months of service. After that they are committed until they are 22.

> But once they turn 18 they can be ordered into combat roles based on a decision they made when they were still a child. That is an uncomfortable situation, but it's not worse than countries that conscript 18-year-olds, who don't even get to make a decision at all.

Systemically, conscription can be "better" if it is randomized and includes everyone. "Volunteer" Armies just means that rich parents can decide to start wars without worrying that their kids might be sent to fight.

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#42

Post by detourdog » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

tomatotomato37 wrote: post #29

One thing I don't see mentioned in this is during that time period secondary/high school wasn't really a thing yet, meaning it wasn't that unusual for a 15 year old to be considered both fully educated and part of the workforce. It really wasn't until after WWI that we pushed the working adult age out to 18 for more education.

Family legend is that my grandfather lied about his age to join in the US Army in WW I. He was granted citizenship for joining the effort.

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#43

Post by sidewndr46 » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

dukeyukey wrote: post #24

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #5

> In April 1862 it adopted a policy of universal conscription, and in February 1864 it lowered the age of mandatory service from eighteen to seventeen. Additionally, some Confederate states enrolled boys as young as sixteen for service in state-controlled units. In the UK in 2023 it is still possible to join the military when you're 16 years old, and you can start your application when 5 months before that. No other…

You can't actually be deployed until you're 18 though - it's basically a way of front-loading training.

but if the UK was invaded, you'd be expected to pick up arms in the kingdoms defense right?

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#44

Post by sidewndr46 » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

earthboundkid wrote: post #13

My grandfather supposedly did the "Yes, I am over 18" (stepping a piece of paper with 18 on it) trick after Pearl Harbor. I guess it was probably pretty common for kids who were borderline old enough to serve.

The explanation I got was my grandfather did the same. In his service records it seems he stops getting older for a few years at some point, probably because after WWII they were trying to get all the remaining enlisted men's records correct.

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#45

Post by chrisbrandow » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

earthboundkid wrote: post #13

My grandfather supposedly did the "Yes, I am over 18" (stepping a piece of paper with 18 on it) trick after Pearl Harbor. I guess it was probably pretty common for kids who were borderline old enough to serve.

I've read so many biographical sketches of various individuals that begin the description of their stint in the WWI or WWII military with statements like, "when he was 16/17 he signed up for the war, lying about his age…" It seems pretty commonplace.

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#46

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:08 PM UTC

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #5

> In April 1862 it adopted a policy of universal conscription, and in February 1864 it lowered the age of mandatory service from eighteen to seventeen. Additionally, some Confederate states enrolled boys as young as sixteen for service in state-controlled units. In the UK in 2023 it is still possible to join the military when you're 16 years old, and you can start your application when 5 months before that. No other…

[deleted]

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#47

Post by __MatrixMan__ » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

Eumenes wrote: post #10

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #5

> In April 1862 it adopted a policy of universal conscription, and in February 1864 it lowered the age of mandatory service from eighteen to seventeen. Additionally, some Confederate states enrolled boys as young as sixteen for service in state-controlled units. In the UK in 2023 it is still possible to join the military when you're 16 years old, and you can start your application when 5 months before that. No other…

"Child soldiers" is dramatic. I don't see a problem with a 16 year old joining the military, with the support of their parents, esp. if they don't have an interest in college. They could learn some valuable skills, certainly more than you'd learn in public education.

Really? I see a problem with people joining the military regardless of their age, but especially if they're too young to be sufficiently critical of whatever they were told by the recruiter.

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#48

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #30

A bit of an aside, but it seems like the South would've had a lot fewer able-bodied, young men to fight the war especially since they weren't inclined to arm black soldiers. Given that the south was primarily agrarian with fewer urban areas to draw from - the population was more sparse. How did the confederacy think they could win given that difference?

[deleted]

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#49

Post by marcusverus » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:39 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #30

A bit of an aside, but it seems like the South would've had a lot fewer able-bodied, young men to fight the war especially since they weren't inclined to arm black soldiers. Given that the south was primarily agrarian with fewer urban areas to draw from - the population was more sparse. How did the confederacy think they could win given that difference?

At first glance one might suspect that South's disinclination to arm black soldiers would harm their ability to field a large proportion of their population, but that wasn't the case. The ready availability of slave labor enabled free men, who would have otherwise been required at home to work the fields or bring in the crops, to go off and fight instead. IIRC, around 80% of able-bodied free men in the South fought in the war.

> How did the confederacy think they could win given that difference?

When your country gets invaded, you don't grab your abacas, you grab your gun.

Re: Underage Enlistment in the United States and the Confederacy

#50

Post by Fricken » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 6:42 PM UTC

retrac wrote: post #39

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #5

> In April 1862 it adopted a policy of universal conscription, and in February 1864 it lowered the age of mandatory service from eighteen to seventeen. Additionally, some Confederate states enrolled boys as young as sixteen for service in state-controlled units. In the UK in 2023 it is still possible to join the military when you're 16 years old, and you can start your application when 5 months before that. No other…

Canada also allows 17 year olds to be enlisted (16 for the reserves). They cannot be deployed in combat per international convention. As I understand it, it's basically a legal historical quirk at this point; it almost never happens -- they're not qualified otherwise. Essentially all roles require secondary education and many want a college degree these days.

I joined the reserves at 17 in 1994, and did ql 2/3 (Canadian basic) between my grade 11 and 12 year. They woke us up on the first morning, gave us 15 minutes to shit, shower and shave, but I had never shaved before. It was just wisps of peachfuzz on my face, and my hurried, improvised hack shaving job had the sergeants shaking their heads.