Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#361

Post by travisporter » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:42 PM UTC

Delphiki wrote: post #311

jameshart wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JD Power has Rivian, MINI and Kia scoring higher than any Tesla model.[1] Polestar, Ford VW, Audi and Hyundai are in the same ballpark for ratings. Several of those manufacturers have cars in the 30K range, well below the prices Tesla is starting at. That moat seems pretty small these days. [1] https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-elec...

For me, it's hard to find anyone else that matches Tesla on price, range, and performance. It seems like with the other EVs you get to pick two of those.

I agree. I think Hyundai/Kia got close until Tesla dropped their prices.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#362

Post by meepmorp » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:42 PM UTC

RajT88 wrote: post #349

hinkley wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest rounds of gas convenience stores have gotten more square footage than earlier generations. I suspect they are anticipating indoor seating for charging customers at some point. I’ve also started seeing joint ventures where it’s a proper coffee stand or in one case I can think of an A&W root beer. Gas stations tend to be physically separated from pastimes (what Burger King owner wants diesel fumes in their s…

I've been seeing some of these as well in recent years. The most memorable one was down in Louisville, where there was a gas station/bait shop/bar. The bartender sold me some whole-hog pork sausage at $2/lb. which he kept in a duffel bag in the ice box. Totally on the up-and-up. Another is a well-known BBQ joint / convenience store out by Kansas City (I forget the name). Most common, I think, is having a Subway insid…

> The bartender sold me some whole-hog pork sausage at $2/lb. which he kept in a duffel bag in the ice box. Totally on the up-and-up.

The secret ingredient is trichinosis!

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#363

Post by enragedcacti » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #216

enragedcacti wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true in most of the US right now depending on how efficient either vehicle is. I can't check supercharger rates but EA pricing is mostly the same across the country: EA membership pricing: $0.36/kWh California gas prices: $4.86/gal ($4.86/gallon)/(x mpg)=$0.36/1kwh *(29kwh/100mi) x=46.6 mpg to break even with the Chevy Bolt's efficiency in the worst case scenario for gas in the US. A Prius and many other hybrid…

So how does something like a plug-in hybrid compare here? https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=42814 You've got a much smaller battery so the at-home charging cost should be less. But look at that combined mpge! They seem like a nice idea for this transitional period but it appears they are just becoming luxury vehicles that are produced in small quantities.

Important to note that any appreciable amount of home charging makes it a lot harder for gas to beat EVs or PHEVs most places and my calculations above are for 100% fast charging. PHEVs are hard to calculate for because where they land between hybrids and full EVs is basically entirely dependent on the user but the upshot (ignoring emissions) is that the best PHEVs aren't much worse than the best hybrids or the best EVs so you can choose the cheapest fuel on a day-to-day basis and potentially come out ahead.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=42814&...

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#364

Post by post-it » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

spike021 wrote: post #284

93po wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many modern cars have very good backup cameras that also show incoming traffic from both sides and don't required 5 eyeballs

Maybe on HN the majority of people have those modern cars, but I assure you in the real world the odds are not that good.

Are there any electric cars without backup cameras?

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#365

Post by jandrese » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #318

wilg wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market share isn't a good metric for a company that started out with 100% market share and therefore has nowhere to go but down. I think Tesla will continue to be successful selling cars and grow the number of cars they sell at a high rate. Also, it sounds like this move is a really good incentive from a product perspective. If there really are a significant of people who only chose Tesla because of Superchargers, th…

Tesla did not have 100% market share. Nissan Leaf came out before the Model S. (And if you want to count the Roadster, you should count the EV1, etc.) But I think the point is that electric cars will take over the whole market, and so if Tesla’s US market share falls to like 20-30% from the current 60% or whatever it is but that market is 10-30 times larger, that’s a huge win.

Yes, in theory the GM's EV-1 beat them to market by a lot. But in real terms Tesla had the EV market cornered for years. The only real competition was the Leaf and Bolt, and even those were low volume vehicles. It remains to be seen if the legacy automakers can successfully ramp production this year. They have made a lot of promises, but actual deliveries are still lagging.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#366

Post by _ea1k » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

snuxoll wrote: post #30

pathartl wrote: post #22

I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.

AFAICT NACS (read, the "standard" and not Tesla's original release) speaks the same protocol as CCS, it just combines the AC and DC pins into, yes, a sleeker connector. So no real "benefit", and it actually adds complexity into the car itself. But theoretically one could also make a NACS -> CCS adapter, so it wouldn't end up as a CHAdeMO situation. EDIT: I forgot, the NACS connector is more or less self-aligning if y…

> EDIT: I forgot, the NACS connector is more or less self-aligning if you get it in the right general orientation, whereas CCS is pretty particular.

This last part is so useful that I'm stunned anyone designed a connector without it.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#367

Post by marsokod » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

mkozlows wrote: post #265

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The thing about how this is affects Tesla is "compared to what?" Compared to the historic status quo where there were no other chargers, and Tesla had exclusive access to a large-ish proprietary charging network, it looks like Tesla giving up their advantage, and seems bad. But the forward-looking status quo was going to be a gigantic network of CCS chargers that makes Tesla's proprietary network look small, with eve…

> In that world, Tesla would have had to switch their cars over to CCS eventually and retrofit their existing chargers to CCS, and people who bought Teslas with the proprietary plug have a terrible UX of needing adapters everywhere.

It should be noted that in any case Tesla will have to support CCS, though in its CCS2 version. It is the de facto standard in Europe and is in the process of making their chargers in Europe fully compatible since the M3 comes with CCS2 by default here. And it is unlikely to change any time soon, CHAdeMO is dying here and all the other networks are using CCS2 (which seems to be much better than CCS1 if I trust the complaints about CCS1 I read on HN).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#368

Post by jandrese » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #326

panick21_ wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players Based on what exactly? Tesla cars are wildly popular in their segments. They have elite efficiency, high margin, they lead in costumer loyalty and costumer satisfaction ratings. Model Y is literally the most sold car in the world. What actual evidence are you basing these claims on? Tesla is making a huge amount of money because of vertical inte…

Keep in mind it was extremely common on HN to proclaim Tesla was going to go bankrupt, that the Model S would never be manufactured at any scale, that the Model 3 would fail and would also never be manufactured at great scale. Sure Tesla has plenty of flaws and always have, and yet they remain ahead of the competition in what's going to be a multi-trillion dollar market (EVs) segment. Tesla's primary business problem…

The Model Y seems to be their real killer product. The Model 3 is a solid #2 for the business.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#369

Post by _ea1k » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #170

mavhc wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NACS uses CCS protocols, see Page 11 of https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Cha... For DC charging, communication between the EV and EVSE shall be power line communication over the control pilot line as depicted in DIN 70121.

Hmmm, we need a good name for the older Tesla plugs that aren't NACS compliant. When I said "current NACS", that's what I was referring to. I should have been more explicit. Tesla vehicles built before ~2020 do not and can not speak CCS without a retrofit.

Arguably, those are !NACS at all. It wasn't called NACS until the specs were delivered, along with the requirement to support CCS signaling.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#370

Post by earthboundkid » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #310

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most EVs charge at home most of the time, so there isn't that much money in the "fuel" industry, they are mostly needed for long distance trips (and so crowd up on holiday weekends), not daily driving.

> Most EVs charge at home most of the time Umm, there's a significant chunk of the world's population who will likely never be able to charge at home, because they live in apartments and park on-street. "EV owners who live in apartment buildings and park on the street will rely heavily on public chargers—in 2021, 42 percent of European EV owners living in cities had no access to home charging points." https://www.mck…

In the US, most apartment dwellers park in a garage, which can and will be retrofitted with chargers. Street parking is the major challenge. In Park Slope Brooklyn, I often see a lone cable coming out of a brownstone out to a Tesla on the street. :-)