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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#301

Post by seanmcdirmid »

agloe_dreams wrote: post #294
mkozlows wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about how this is affects Tesla is "compared to what?" Compared to the historic status quo where there were no other chargers, and Tesla had exclusive access to a large-ish proprietary charging network, it looks like Tesla giving up their advantage, and seems bad. But the forward-looking status quo was going to be a gigantic network of CCS chargers that makes Tesla's proprietary network look small, with eve…

Also one other detail: There's a hell of a lot more money in the car 'fuel' industry than the car making business. R&D costs are way lower, you don't need that many employees, and you can always charge these third party automakers more. Tesla is going to make bank off these adopters.

Most EVs charge at home most of the time, so there isn't that much money in the "fuel" industry, they are mostly needed for long distance trips (and so crowd up on holiday weekends), not daily driving.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#302

Post by 93po »

jameshart wrote: post #274
93po wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that they have, by far, the best products at given prices.

JD Power has Rivian, MINI and Kia scoring higher than any Tesla model.[1] Polestar, Ford VW, Audi and Hyundai are in the same ballpark for ratings. Several of those manufacturers have cars in the 30K range, well below the prices Tesla is starting at. That moat seems pretty small these days. [1] https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-elec...

I believe these studies to be problematic for many reasons. The first is because they measure owner satisfaction, but they make zero effort to measure owner expectations. Are the expectations for people buying Teslas much higher than people who buy from other manufacturers? Are they more sophisticated of a buyer and think more deeply about their car?

The second issue is they also do things like compare the Rivian R1T to the Model 3, which is half the retail price and less than a quarter of the manufacturing cost (Rivian takes huge losses on their sales).

The final issue I'll mention is that JD Power makes almost all of its money from traditional car manufacturers. This is a huge conflict of interest and there is zero legal accountability.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#303

Post by [deleted] »

minhazm wrote: post #230
traceroute66 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. Agree 100%. At present, Tesla really feels like a bit of a "Jack of all trades, master of none" job. I'm certainly no Elon fanboi, but I will happily state that there are clearly a number of things they do well (certain core components and the charging network). But the cars themselves as a who…

> At present, Tesla really feels like a bit of a "Jack of all trades, master of none" job. That's an odd take. Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the world, and the second best selling vehicle in the US after the Ford F-150. It outsells the Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Civic, etc. Look at Mercedes, BMW and Audi sales, they've been plummeting because everyone is buying a Tesla instead. They're also the leading battery st…

[deleted]

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#304

Post by gleenn »

ajross wrote: post #260
traceroute66 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. Only idiots buy black-box based car insurance (whether Tesla or any other). I mean, come on, insurance companies are already renowned for slippery policy wordings and the desire to get out of paying-out. Do you seriously think an insurance company having access to your driving data is really being done for your benefit ? I would be willing to bet its so that Mr Risk Adjustor…

> Only idiots buy black-box based car insurance Monitored policies are almost always significantly cheaper. That's why people buy them. I won't engage on who the "idiot" is in that analysis except to say that Adam Smith probably has an opinion. The reason this works is that it forces the consumers to self-partition into those who think they drive safely and those who know they don't. That doesn't correlate perfectly…

Anecdata but my mother opted for the sensor tracking on her phone through her insurance company while driving and she saw almost zero cost savings.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#305

Post by alistairSH »

rootusrootus wrote: post #181
alistairSH wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hinted at this, but a significant % of the population lives in either rented or multi-family housing, so home charging may not be feasible (at least in the short-to-medium term). While I own my home, I don't own my parking space (community property, assigned to me via HOA rules). While we're allowed to install a chargers, it's only possible for homes with assigned spaces directly in front of the home (albeit pric…

The people who can charge at home still make up more than 50% of the market, though, and there's a few more years before that really becomes a limiting factor in sales. That's plenty of time for most places to get L2 chargers available.

Absolutely.

But, it is a problem that needs solved. We're firmly within the "buy a new EV" demographic otherwise, but the cost+hassle of installing a charger at home definitely contributes to our "meh, we'll keep the ICE another year or two" mentality.

And in a few years, charger availability might start to impact resales. Maybe. Mostly just thinking aloud.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#306

Post by alistairSH »

londons_explore wrote: post #159
alistairSH wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why front-center didn't become the standard here. That would obviate more stand placement and cable length issues. The only people who stand to lose are those weirdos who reverse into parking places. ;) (Rear-center would work too)

One day, on street parking will want to have charging, and that is nearly all parallel parking, for which front/rear center would be suboptimal.

Less sub-optimal than Tesla's driver-side port.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#307

Post by Pet_Ant »

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

> a better standard in North America

Is a global standard not better for everyone in the long run?

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#308

Post by ballenf »

kube-system wrote: post #254
jandrese wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mercedes system is a headline system. In that it was designed to generate headlines without actually accomplishing much.

MB's system accomplishes the levels of quality defined in the SAE standard. Tesla is taking a different strategy by focusing on quantity of features, although many of them fail to meet the reliability standards of the higher SAE specs. Tesla is stuck at level 2 because the level of reliability required at level 3 would mean they'd have to remove features to meet it.

And turn it off completely when driving on half the roads in the US.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#309

Post by hinkley »

agloe_dreams wrote: post #294
mkozlows wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about how this is affects Tesla is "compared to what?" Compared to the historic status quo where there were no other chargers, and Tesla had exclusive access to a large-ish proprietary charging network, it looks like Tesla giving up their advantage, and seems bad. But the forward-looking status quo was going to be a gigantic network of CCS chargers that makes Tesla's proprietary network look small, with eve…

Also one other detail: There's a hell of a lot more money in the car 'fuel' industry than the car making business. R&D costs are way lower, you don't need that many employees, and you can always charge these third party automakers more. Tesla is going to make bank off these adopters.

The latest rounds of gas convenience stores have gotten more square footage than earlier generations. I suspect they are anticipating indoor seating for charging customers at some point.

I’ve also started seeing joint ventures where it’s a proper coffee stand or in one case I can think of an A&W root beer.

Gas stations tend to be physically separated from pastimes (what Burger King owner wants diesel fumes in their store?), and someone at least is hedging their bets that won’t always be the case. I don’t know if they’ll see the fruits but their kids absolutely will.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#310

Post by logifail »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #301
agloe_dreams wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also one other detail: There's a hell of a lot more money in the car 'fuel' industry than the car making business. R&D costs are way lower, you don't need that many employees, and you can always charge these third party automakers more. Tesla is going to make bank off these adopters.

Most EVs charge at home most of the time, so there isn't that much money in the "fuel" industry, they are mostly needed for long distance trips (and so crowd up on holiday weekends), not daily driving.

> Most EVs charge at home most of the time

Umm, there's a significant chunk of the world's population who will likely never be able to charge at home, because they live in apartments and park on-street.

"EV owners who live in apartment buildings and park on the street will rely heavily on public chargers—in 2021, 42 percent of European EV owners living in cities had no access to home charging points."

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/...

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