Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

ev-edition.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 761 posts

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#231

Post by skrtskrt »

MattRix wrote: post #189
dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

I think the vast vast majority of people (non HN techies) at this stage don't care that nearly as much about self driving as they do about having an electric/Hybrid/PHEV car that's just a great total package of a car - something that the existing car manufacturers are far, far better at than Tesla.

Even manufacturers like Chevy and Ford can run circles around Tesla in terms of overall quality.

Anecdotally in LA which has tons of electric cars, people that originally had interest in the status symbolism of Tesla jumped back to Mercedes, BMW, and Volvo(Polestar) the instant those manufacturers had viable electric options.

People are banging down Toyota's doors for the plugin hybrids. Those people are not buying a Tesla in the meantime. People are just waiting for their existing trusted manufacturers to produce enough capacity.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#232

Post by sagarkamat »

erikstarck wrote: post #195
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

Not sure about other OEMs but at least Ford's CEO has clarified Ford customers will be able to use the FordPass app to use the tesla chargers.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#233

Post by panick21_ »

toast0 wrote: post #131
panick21_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The impediment is that it takes a huge amount of technical knowledge and execution, plus a huge amount of capital, plus the ability to operate a huge service and maintenance team. If there is already a very large first rate infrastructure, then replicating that is very difficult. Your statement sounds to me like 'trains are technically easy' there is not reason we can't have highly competitive industry in cargo trans…

If charging is all pay per use and not a subscription (especially not a subscription you get included with a vehicle), there's no need to operate on a large scale; it's like gas stations: most are franchised chain stations, but there's tons of independents. Electrify America is the product of a court settlement; it doesn't really need to earn money, it just needs to keep VW out of court.

Electrify America has already spent the money from the court settlement, they need raise money like any other company and make a profit.

> If charging is all pay per use and not a subscription (especially not a subscription you get included with a vehicle)

Those things are already happening on large scale.

The logic you suggest is only true if an independent can easily make a competitive station. The problem is Tesla is mass producing super charges at prices that simply can't be matched by other producers.

There are also economics of scale in terms of routing cars and achieving higher utilization.

Private franchises need to actually make a good profit to be worth setting up. In EV charging the money goes to the equipment provider or the electricity producer. You might make some money with additional services like a shop or a cafe. But in that case you might as well make a deal with a large player like Tesla to put up a station.

Also if your station breaks, you need an repair person to show up quickly. And company that sell charging equipment they mass produced are usually not good at providing those services.

You will also have the disadvantage that the biggest fleet will simply route people to their own stations. Driving down your utilization.

I think most charging networks will be large not individual. We see very few individual DC fast chargers.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#234

Post by pkulak »

starik36 wrote: post #217
dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

My wife drives a Tesla and I drive newish rental cars on a reasonably frequent basis. So I have a basis for comparison. They are definitely not being beaten by larger players. At least not at this stage. Their software is top notch compared to the mish-mash of home grown and Car Play on other vehicles. And the implementation of AutoSteer (free cut down version of self driving) is far superior to what I've seen in oth…

I’ve personally enjoyed auto steer on every car I’ve driven not a Tesla. Some let you keep your hands off the wheel, and none of them phantom break every couple hundred miles, which is the ultimate deal breaker.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#235

Post by w0m »

dahfizz wrote: post #194
techdmn wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm happy to consider a non-Tesla (mostly because I'd really prefer a more traditional gauge cluster and more physical controls), but have struggled to find anything that beats the price for performance of the Model 3 Performance. And yes, I realize I'm a niche buyer.

You're right that the model 3 performance is still a convincing product, but cars like the Mustang Mach-E and BMW i4 are coming close. A few years ago there was no good option besides tesla, but in another couple years tesla will have fallen behind the competition

Mach E looks like a Boat in comparison to me (I also dislike the Y), doesn't feel like a direct competitor. I should test drive regardless though.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#236

Post by NegativeK »

erikstarck wrote: post #195
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

> People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise.

They don't advertise because their word of mouth and media presence is incredibly strong. It's also the same reason I basically had to strong arm the sales center into selling me one of their cars -- the demand is incredibly high.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#237

Post by almost_usual »

dahfizz wrote: post #150
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

I thought most Tesla batteries were CATL, LG, and Panasonic.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#238

Post by Reason077 »

wsatb wrote: post #219
MattRix wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

The big players are just late to the game, but have been making cars for decades. They will easily overtake Tesla on number of EVs built as they transition. Tesla isn’t good at making cars. And every year my confidence in full self driving goes down. They are good at charging though and will print money doing that.

The big incumbents (US, EU, Japanese) have high cost bases and may struggle to compete on price with Tesla, as well as emerging Chinese competition.

The real "secret sauce" behind Tesla right now is that they've figured out how to produce affordable, desirable EVs at scale while maintaining industry-leading margins.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#239

Post by panick21_ »

dahfizz wrote: post #150
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

> The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players

Based on what exactly?

Tesla cars are wildly popular in their segments. They have elite efficiency, high margin, they lead in costumer loyalty and costumer satisfaction ratings. Model Y is literally the most sold car in the world.

What actual evidence are you basing these claims on?

Tesla is making a huge amount of money because of vertical integration, why would they give that up to be a contract manufacturer or sell batteries.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#240

Post by traceroute66 »

outlace wrote: post #204
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

> Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat.

Only idiots buy black-box based car insurance (whether Tesla or any other).

I mean, come on, insurance companies are already renowned for slippery policy wordings and the desire to get out of paying-out.

Do you seriously think an insurance company having access to your driving data is really being done for your benefit ?

I would be willing to bet its so that Mr Risk Adjustor at the insurance company can say "computer AI algorithm says it thinks you were driving 'aggressively' that morning".

And once "computer says no" you'll have a hell of a time trying to fight it.

Post reply on HN