Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#211

Post by vxNsr » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #194

techdmn wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm happy to consider a non-Tesla (mostly because I'd really prefer a more traditional gauge cluster and more physical controls), but have struggled to find anything that beats the price for performance of the Model 3 Performance. And yes, I realize I'm a niche buyer.

You're right that the model 3 performance is still a convincing product, but cars like the Mustang Mach-E and BMW i4 are coming close. A few years ago there was no good option besides tesla, but in another couple years tesla will have fallen behind the competition

BMW in my circles has the reputation as being a brand you buy when you can afford to have a car in the shop most of the time. Most American brands have reputation as just being really poorly built and bad value props. Not sure how either of those two options overcomes that view.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#212

Post by brianstorms » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #150

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

I sometimes suspect what's really going on with Tesla is that they want to become the world's manufacturer of EVs of all sorts, utility-scale energy storage systems, and software for EVs including ADAS.

Musk has said it: "the factory is the product." I kinda wonder if the real goal is, as the legacy OEMs quake, rattle, flail around begging for government handouts, and start to fail, Tesla knocks on their door and says "hey we can build your cars for you, with your brand on them, using our charging standard, our batteries, and our software. Just sign here."

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#213

Post by afavour » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #189

dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

For sure. But that’s an absolutely massive “if”. Almost guaranteed we’ll be transitioning to EVs (I mean, we already are at a small scale) before full self driving is reliable.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#214

Post by Retric » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

erikstarck wrote: post #198

Retric wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla’s gross margins are down quite a bit since the Twitter deal. It’s hard to correlate consumer sentiment with the price drop vs other factors, but gross margins dropped from 27% to 23% which represent a lot of money. How much this impacts the company going forward is hard to say, but my guess is we’re talking 10’s of billions. Which makes it much harder to keep up with the expanding EV market, their super charger…

The margins were inflated during the pandemic, though. Musk even called their prices "embarrassingly expensive". https://www.carscoops.com/2022/07/teslas-prices-are-embarras...

Tesla’s gross margins were much higher in 2011 than 2022. But yea, this is why I said it’s hard to separate how much of this was Tesla specific vs industry wide. However, the need to cut prices despite high inflation was unusual in the car industry and suggests a Tesla specific issue.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#215

Post by traceroute66 » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #189

dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

> they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents

And that's exactly what the output of their factories feel like. Cheap and quickly built. ;-)

More haste, less speed and all that ...

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#216

Post by jancsika » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

enragedcacti wrote: post #105

asynchronous wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are higher than current gas prices I am not aware of any electric charging station on the planet that costs more than gas does in the same area.

It's true in most of the US right now depending on how efficient either vehicle is. I can't check supercharger rates but EA pricing is mostly the same across the country: EA membership pricing: $0.36/kWh California gas prices: $4.86/gal ($4.86/gallon)/(x mpg)=$0.36/1kwh *(29kwh/100mi) x=46.6 mpg to break even with the Chevy Bolt's efficiency in the worst case scenario for gas in the US. A Prius and many other hybrid…

So how does something like a plug-in hybrid compare here?

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=42814

You've got a much smaller battery so the at-home charging cost should be less. But look at that combined mpge!

They seem like a nice idea for this transitional period but it appears they are just becoming luxury vehicles that are produced in small quantities.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#217

Post by starik36 » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #150

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

My wife drives a Tesla and I drive newish rental cars on a reasonably frequent basis. So I have a basis for comparison. They are definitely not being beaten by larger players. At least not at this stage.

Their software is top notch compared to the mish-mash of home grown and Car Play on other vehicles. And the implementation of AutoSteer (free cut down version of self driving) is far superior to what I've seen in other cars.

I can see other automakers catching up in 2-3 years, but that is not the case right now.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#218

Post by modeless » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

genericone wrote: post #3

Tesla owns the electric gas station! for now... Now that unity is achieved in the US, I think we're about to see an explosion in charging stations and designs of various charging hubs (drive-in movies's revival?) as Tesla won't be allowed to own the network 100% come soon.

Who else is going to invest in a fast DC network? The closest competitor was Electrify America, and they can't make the economics work. Tesla made it work by subsidizing their $1B+ global fast DC charging network cost out of robust vehicle margins. Most EV users will charge at home, some at their place of work and businesses, with fast DC charging filling the remaining gap (people who can't charge at home or people o…

Tesla also made it work by making their chargers cheaper with smart engineering. CCS stations are huge monoliths packed full of fancy lights, touchscreens, ridiculously long cables, giant plugs. Superchargers have none of that. A cable no longer than absolutely necessary, a stand just large enough to hold it comfortably, a plug about as small as possible, no blinkenlights or touchscreens.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#219

Post by wsatb » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #189

dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

The big players are just late to the game, but have been making cars for decades. They will easily overtake Tesla on number of EVs built as they transition.

Tesla isn’t good at making cars. And every year my confidence in full self driving goes down. They are good at charging though and will print money doing that.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#220

Post by Rebelgecko » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #182

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who else is going to invest in a fast DC network? The closest competitor was Electrify America, and they can't make the economics work. Tesla made it work by subsidizing their $1B+ global fast DC charging network cost out of robust vehicle margins. Most EV users will charge at home, some at their place of work and businesses, with fast DC charging filling the remaining gap (people who can't charge at home or people o…

> The closest competitor was Electrify America, and they can't make the economics work. Tesla made it work by subsidizing their $1B+ global fast DC charging network cost out of robust vehicle margins. The economics are going to have to change. Right now, dollar-for-dollar, electricity for your vehicle is cheaper than gasoline. I'm confident that will not be the case in the near future; the charging infrastructure has…

>Right now, dollar-for-dollar, electricity for your vehicle is cheaper than gasoline

When I did the math on this, that wasn't necessarily the case in my area, it depended on the situation. $0.40/kWh comes out to around 7 miles per dollar, depending on your vehicle and how you drive it (eg on a road trip going 80mph you'd probably get less than 7, chill city driving with no passengers maybe you get as high as 10 miles per dollar).

My current ICE car isn't particularly efficient (around 30mpg on the highway, whereas nowadays even non-hybrids can get 40mpg) but for road trip purposes it would also get around 7 miles per dollar.