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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#201

Post by bobthepanda »

erikstarck wrote: post #195
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

Basically, the iTunes on Windows strategy.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#202

Post by megaman821 »

Retric wrote: post #174
megaman821 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a business it seems smarter to grow the pie and increase your revenues even if Tesla's marketshare decreases. Even through the lens of hating Elon Musk and wanting alternatives, most people have no strong feelings at all. Price and availability largely dictates what Tesla will sell. I have not seen any data Elon's antics change sales volumes.

Tesla’s gross margins are down quite a bit since the Twitter deal. It’s hard to correlate consumer sentiment with the price drop vs other factors, but gross margins dropped from 27% to 23% which represent a lot of money. How much this impacts the company going forward is hard to say, but my guess is we’re talking 10’s of billions. Which makes it much harder to keep up with the expanding EV market, their super charger…

There is no telling how much money is involved in falling margins if you don't also look at revenues. A quick Google search shows their gross profits look fine.

Also, you would have to compare them to other manufacturers. If profits were down an average of 20% and Tesla's were down 10% then they would be over performing their competitors during a down market.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#203

Post by KennyBlanken »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #100
enragedcacti wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla made it work by subsidizing their $1B+ global fast DC charging network cost out of robust vehicle margins. VW is doing the same with EA (although with more vehicles and lower margins). I don't know the specifics and I'm sure they would love for every stall to be full but I wouldn't be surprised if they had no expectation of making a profit at this point or even in the next five years. Honestly I think they ha…

VW was required to fund Electrify America ($2B) as part of their Diselgate settlement with the US goverment, and they were prohibited from branding them as VW as part of the deal (hence the EA brand). EA has tried to get additional funding with not so great results. Might be able to salvage the network if they add or swap out for NACS plugs (opening up to the mass market EVs), but if they can't make the unit economic…

And this is why EA is such a shitshow. VW was required to spend the money. They weren't required to make it a good charging system. So: poor maintenance, buggy software, and overall an experience that makes everyone who tries to use one hate it.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#204

Post by outlace »

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#205

Post by bryanlarsen »

itsoktocry wrote: post #200
dreamcompiler wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently the price of energy per mile at a Tesla Supercharger is about 1/3 to 1/2 the equivalent amount of gasoline. If you charge at home it's more like 1/4. A large fraction (probably more than half) of EV owners charge at home and rarely need a fast charger. Approximately zero ICE owners refuel at home. ICE cars must be refueled at gas stations. Demand for fast chargers will never be as high as demand for gas sta…

> Anybody with $10,000 can install PV panels and charge their EV at home for free forever. I'd love to know where you can get panels, a charger and batteries for a 100% off-grid system that will work forever...installed for $10,000.

"free forever" doesn't imply 100% off-grid or batteries. It could imply that you only charge your car when the sun is shining.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#206

Post by traceroute66 »

dahfizz wrote: post #150
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

> The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at.

Agree 100%.

At present, Tesla really feels like a bit of a "Jack of all trades, master of none" job.

I'm certainly no Elon fanboi, but I will happily state that there are clearly a number of things they do well (certain core components and the charging network).

But the cars themselves as a whole. They feel like what they are. Cheaply built, but sold at a premium price.

Tesla would do well if they became the OEM's OEM.

You know, a bit like how Dell, HP and everyone else ship servers with Seagate drives. Tesla should become the Seagate and leave the outer shell bit to others.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#207

Post by vxNsr »

bobthepanda wrote: post #201
erikstarck wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

Basically, the iTunes on Windows strategy.

Yup sounds like it. Tesla has always positioned themselves as the apple of cars.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#208

Post by itsoktocry »

vel0city wrote: post #86
jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

> How to switch that to an all-electric system? Simple, most residents of the town won't be at those stations regularly. Most of my DCFC charging sessions have been because I've been wanting to try out different locations and charging equipment, not because I needed the DCFC. In reality, the vast majority of miles my EV will do will not need any public charging infrastructure, at all. Meanwhile, 100% of the miles on…

>So how much did it cost the grid to add my car? $0.

As you say, you are now "running the laundry and cooking" for hours at night to charge your car. How do you conclude this doesn't add cost to the grid?

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#209

Post by chrisco255 »

bkmrkr wrote: post #102
jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

I have a Tesla ~10k miles and have not used supercharger yet because I just plug the car in at home once a week. If you estimate total pump time. IE 35 minutes on supercharger vs 10 minutes on gas (including time to drive to station) but take into account number of times you need to actually charge up the car at a super charger. IE once every 2 months vs 3x per month, you will see that you actually spend less total t…

It takes like 3 minutes tops to fill up a passenger car from near 0 to 100% range. I would have to stop for gas 10 times in a single month to use 30 minutes of pump time, which, for a car with 500 mile range, would imply 5000 miles of travel in a single month, which is almost non-stop driving at 50 mph. Driving to a station is never an issue, because gas stations are ubiquitous, and found along the route you're traveling anyways.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#210

Post by bluSCALE4 »

erikstarck wrote: post #195
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

I think they don't use ads because they already get a ton of money with green credits. I recall all the Tesla doomsayer a few years back saying Tesla was going broke then Tesla sold these credits to other companies for millions. If Tesla loses these edges, which will happen if other car companies go 100% green, then we'll see a more hate-able Tesla with ad-ware.
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