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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#191

Post by jancsika »

_ea1k wrote: post #116
jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

An 8 stall Tesla charging station has a throughput of ~24 cars per hour. A 4 lane interstate can handle ~8k per hour. So, to support peak throughput between cities, you'd need ~2700 stalls every 100 miles or so. But this assumes 100% EVs. With current growth projections, we'd half this ~12 years from now. That seems completely doable, tbh. Cost is an interesting issue. Capital costs aren't particularly excessive, at…

> It isn't clear what will happen, but I wouldn't bet on increased utilization automatically leading to higher rates.

Why not? Especially considering that doing this at scale means having sufficient numbers of charging stations at apartment complexes, condos, etc.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#192

Post by itsoktocry »

jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

>I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes.

I agree, and bring this up often.

During arguments about charging versus refueling, the length of time to charge your EV is significantly greater than fueling up. EV proponents say, "what's the big deal? I just set my car to charge and stretch my legs for half-an-hour".

That works when EVs are 1% of the cars on the road, but not when they're 50%. During road trip season, high traffic gas stations are backed up as it is. Will we need 3-5x the infrastructure (read: "pumps") to service that level of EVs? I mean, we'll get there, but it might be annoying for a long while.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#193

Post by bryanlarsen »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #103
jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

Battery tech is expected to improve to the point of 1000km in 20 minutes. This means 5 minutes will give you about 100 miles. The larger problem is how we will safely scale grid generation to meet the demand.

The average EV uses about 10 kWh of power a day. The average Air Conditioner uses about 10 kWh a day. Yes, the grid will need to expand, but it shouldn't be challenging.

Unless your power grid is already broken for other reasons, (cough California).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#194

Post by dahfizz »

techdmn wrote: post #157
dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

I'm happy to consider a non-Tesla (mostly because I'd really prefer a more traditional gauge cluster and more physical controls), but have struggled to find anything that beats the price for performance of the Model 3 Performance. And yes, I realize I'm a niche buyer.

You're right that the model 3 performance is still a convincing product, but cars like the Mustang Mach-E and BMW i4 are coming close.

A few years ago there was no good option besides tesla, but in another couple years tesla will have fallen behind the competition

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#195

Post by erikstarck »

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough.

But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than without them. Also, Tesla is essentially becoming a platform for EVs. How long before some OEM license Tesla software?

And, remember that there are over 17000 superchargers in the US alone and the deal with Ford and GM only allows access to 12000 of them in the US and Canada together. To get the full Supercharger experience, you still need a Tesla.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#196

Post by mauvehaus »

_ea1k wrote: post #121
thrtythreeforty wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no data, but I suspect we underestimate the impact of at-home charging. Essentially, all vehicles parked at a residence start every day with a full charge. This eliminates most of the demand on fast-charge stations for around-town use. Granted, they still consume power that the grid has to supply, so pricing may change, but I suspect gas station traffic will go way down, in aggregate, as EV adoption climbs. On…

Not only have politicians noticed this, but the conniving little jerks have already started framing the problem in a way that implies EVs should be paying far more than gas cars. Many states are pushing for tag fees based upon the average revenue per gas/disel vehicle per year without regard to those vehicles MPG. Given that a lot of EVs are replacing high MPG vehicles, the formulations are incredibly unfair. But the…

I am not a civil engineer, but it's frequently cited in these discussions that road damage goes up as a function of the 4th power of vehicle weight[0].

A Rivian R1T has a curb weight of 7148lbs [1], a 4wd Chevy Silverado 1500 has a curb weight of 4826 lbs [2]. I think an increased registration fee is more than fair. Hell, do it for all vehicles if you want to make it really fair. We drive far larger vehicles in the US than necessary.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/rivian/r1t/specs [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/specs

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#197

Post by vel0city »

xp84 wrote: post #48
echelon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is NACS superior to CCS in any way apart from install base? I was under the impression NACS was inferior.

Suggest to watch the Technology Connections video. TL;DW: it’s fine, it has some advantages and no real disadvantages. It’s annoying that the US will once again be out of sync with the rest of the world, that’s the main drawback.

Even with CCS1 the US was out of sync with "the rest of the world", which uses a few different connectors.

And in the end it doesn't really matter. I'm not driving my car across the ocean very often. Import processes already tend to make taking a car from one continent to the other a huge hassle, so to the vast majority of people its probably easier to just sell the car in one place and buy another on the other shore.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#198

Post by erikstarck »

Retric wrote: post #174
megaman821 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a business it seems smarter to grow the pie and increase your revenues even if Tesla's marketshare decreases. Even through the lens of hating Elon Musk and wanting alternatives, most people have no strong feelings at all. Price and availability largely dictates what Tesla will sell. I have not seen any data Elon's antics change sales volumes.

Tesla’s gross margins are down quite a bit since the Twitter deal. It’s hard to correlate consumer sentiment with the price drop vs other factors, but gross margins dropped from 27% to 23% which represent a lot of money. How much this impacts the company going forward is hard to say, but my guess is we’re talking 10’s of billions. Which makes it much harder to keep up with the expanding EV market, their super charger…

The margins were inflated during the pandemic, though. Musk even called their prices "embarrassingly expensive".

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/07/teslas-prices-are-embarras...

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#199

Post by bryanlarsen »

itsoktocry wrote: post #192
jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

> I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. I agree, and bring this up often. During arguments about charging versus refueling, the length of time to charge your EV is significantly greater than fueling up. EV proponents say, "what's the big deal? I just set my car to charge and stretch my legs for hal…

There is a charging station in Beijing with over 600 stalls. Yes, we might need more charging stations than gas pumps. But since a charging station + infrastructure is a lot cheaper than a gas pump + infrastructure, what's the big deal?

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#200

Post by itsoktocry »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #97
jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

Currently the price of energy per mile at a Tesla Supercharger is about 1/3 to 1/2 the equivalent amount of gasoline. If you charge at home it's more like 1/4. A large fraction (probably more than half) of EV owners charge at home and rarely need a fast charger. Approximately zero ICE owners refuel at home. ICE cars must be refueled at gas stations. Demand for fast chargers will never be as high as demand for gas sta…

>Anybody with $10,000 can install PV panels and charge their EV at home for free forever.

I'd love to know where you can get panels, a charger and batteries for a 100% off-grid system that will work forever...installed for $10,000.

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