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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#131

Post by toast0 »

panick21_ wrote: post #98
simondotau wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite being one of its most visible operations, the supercharger network is an utterly minuscule part of Tesla's overall business. It's unlikely to ever represent much more than 1% of Tesla's profit. There's never going to be big money in vehicle charging because the vast majority of charging occurs at the owner's premises, and there's no technical impediment stopping the remainder from being a highly competitive i…

The impediment is that it takes a huge amount of technical knowledge and execution, plus a huge amount of capital, plus the ability to operate a huge service and maintenance team. If there is already a very large first rate infrastructure, then replicating that is very difficult. Your statement sounds to me like 'trains are technically easy' there is not reason we can't have highly competitive industry in cargo trans…

If charging is all pay per use and not a subscription (especially not a subscription you get included with a vehicle), there's no need to operate on a large scale; it's like gas stations: most are franchised chain stations, but there's tons of independents.

Electrify America is the product of a court settlement; it doesn't really need to earn money, it just needs to keep VW out of court.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#132

Post by sp332 »

pathartl wrote: post #22

I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.

NACS doesn't have a standard for vehicle-to-home (or vehicle-to-grid) charging. When they opened up the standard, Tesla said that it was allowed, but they didn't specify any standard way to do it. So it might happen, but there's potential for incompatibilities between car manufacturers and charging systems.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#133

Post by martin8412 »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #54
piinbinary wrote: post #34

I wonder if Tesla is repositioning from being a Ford to being an Exxon

Tesla has been the the vertical integration and power supply business for a while now. Or at least has wanted to be. See the Tesla PowerWall and Solar Roof projects.

Both of which are customer nightmares?

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#134

Post by adrianmonk »

bpodgursky wrote: post #17

At this point, the rate at which automakers NACS support is a good proxy for corporate malaise. Everyone sees the writing on the wall for CCS, and if an automaker takes another couple months to announce a migration it simply means the executive leadership has no clue what they are doing with regards to EVs.

And/or, since automakers evidently need some sort of agreement with Tesla[1], if it takes a while, it could be due to negotiations.

For example, if there are fees for using the connector (not sure), an automaker might hold out to get the best price. There may be terms related to the rates that will be paid for using Tesla's charging stations.

There might be other issues. Maybe Tesla wants to qualify automakers' designs so cars don't cause problems with their charging network, or vice versa. The automaker might want access to Tesla engineers or facilities for help with designing or testing stuff.

Also, I don't know who's supplying the connectors (that will be built into the cars), but if it's Tesla, the automaker may want commitments about how many will be delivered by what date and at what cost.

There could also be some sort of IT integration, like charging location map data or maybe allowing customers a different way to pay for charging (through the automaker's app or something).

---

[1] Rivian's press release (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20230620267452/en/Riv...) says they "signed an agreement with Tesla".

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#135

Post by alistairSH »

londons_explore wrote: post #106
alistairSH wrote: post #87

Is Tesla planning to update Supercharger stations to accommodate non-Tesla vehicles. Charge plug notwithstanding, the placement of Supercharger stands is usually for the left-rear charge port on all current Teslas. The stand location and cable length is a problem for vehicles with different designs. Demonstrated here (particularly the F-150 Lightning)... https://youtu.be/W-oaVLRH-js?t=519

I hope that part of the standard is that all vehicles shall have a charge plug on either front/right or back/left corners. Making the cable longer makes the experience worse for everyone - it makes the cable heavier (harder to use), more expensive (which will end up in power prices), easier to damage (as it is dragged across the floor or driven over), more electrical losses in the cable (again, higher prices). There…

I never understood why front-center didn't become the standard here. That would obviate more stand placement and cable length issues.

The only people who stand to lose are those weirdos who reverse into parking places. ;)

(Rear-center would work too)

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#136

Post by mardifoufs »

xp84 wrote: post #48
echelon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is NACS superior to CCS in any way apart from install base? I was under the impression NACS was inferior.

Suggest to watch the Technology Connections video. TL;DW: it’s fine, it has some advantages and no real disadvantages. It’s annoying that the US will once again be out of sync with the rest of the world, that’s the main drawback.

The rest of the world does not mean Europe, no matter how much euro nationalists think it does. (China and Japan for example don't use the CCS plug).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#137

Post by NickM »

saalweachter wrote: post #119
conk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000V). I think it will be a while before we see cars able to charge anywhere near this, but there is a trend right now of big EV pickups with massive batteries. Higher power chargers means faster charge times. The only downside I see with NACS is you can’t level 2…

I'm a little confused by fast charging standards, to be honest. 1MW is 20x the maximum draw of a standard house, and 800x the average draw of a US house. The hydro plant down the road generates 5MW. It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.

DC charging stations sometimes have batteries on site so that they can charge up from the grid and then deliver bursts of power from the batteries during charging. Apparently this is often worth it to avoid the high demand fees that utilities charge when you draw a lot of power at once.

I assume this will become more ubiquitous as charging speeds continue to increase.

(You're right that a megawatt is a high power draw in the context of normal household electricity usage, but keep in mind that if you can pump ten gallons of gas in a minute you're effectively drawing the equivalent of something like 20MW, so in the context of vehicle refueling it's not so crazy.)

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#138

Post by philg_jr »

saalweachter wrote: post #119
conk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000V). I think it will be a while before we see cars able to charge anywhere near this, but there is a trend right now of big EV pickups with massive batteries. Higher power chargers means faster charge times. The only downside I see with NACS is you can’t level 2…

I'm a little confused by fast charging standards, to be honest. 1MW is 20x the maximum draw of a standard house, and 800x the average draw of a US house. The hydro plant down the road generates 5MW. It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.

You'll never need that much power at home. Level 2 AC 240V 30-50A is fine for overnight charging.

The way Tesla Supercharging works is by using a large bank of batteries for the heavy bursts of power draw (>100kW) during the initial periods of charging when the battery is warm and at a low percent. The batteries at the station are backfilled with less current from the grid in the background during periods of low use. At least that is how I understand it.

but yeah, maybe trucks with huge batteries may be able to take advantage of it down the road.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#139

Post by dmoy »

saalweachter wrote: post #119
conk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000V). I think it will be a while before we see cars able to charge anywhere near this, but there is a trend right now of big EV pickups with massive batteries. Higher power chargers means faster charge times. The only downside I see with NACS is you can’t level 2…

I'm a little confused by fast charging standards, to be honest. 1MW is 20x the maximum draw of a standard house, and 800x the average draw of a US house. The hydro plant down the road generates 5MW. It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.

> It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.

For comparison, a normal gas station pump is like about 4MW of power (fuel).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#140

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

martin8412 wrote: post #133
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla has been the the vertical integration and power supply business for a while now. Or at least has wanted to be. See the Tesla PowerWall and Solar Roof projects.

Both of which are customer nightmares?

I said "has wanted to be" - because intent is not always the same as outcome.
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