I wonder if Tesla is repositioning from being a Ford to being an Exxon
Has been for a long time. There's a reason why the solar panels and solar batteries are branded as Tesla and not Solar City.
Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
111–120 of 761 posts
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#112I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America.
I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward.
Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned.
Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that.
Is the brand name of being effectively the gas station of EVs worth it to them? I assume there’ll be a surcharge , so is it better for them to have the biggest slice of much smaller pies?
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nah, Stellantis is just bad. Their EV tech is poor. They have no dedicated EV platform, and they struggle to make profit on EVs. They're not invested in CCS at all — they're still hoping EVs are a fad.
Stellantis has dedicated EVs in Europe. That largely why Stellantis was created in the first place. So FCA would not be totally lost on EVs. The PSA group does have EVs. But you are correct, they are not much invested in CCS in the US. Unlike say Volkswagen.
By lack of a dedicated platform I mean that all of their EVs share the platform with ICE/hybrid versions of vehicles. They're either available with an engine of your choice (like Peugeot and DS), or are only a new body on an older ICE+EV shared platform (like Jeep Avenger is built on Opel/Vauxhall Astra).
Contrast this with VW MEB, Hyundai/Kia eGMP, Porsche J1, Mercedes EVA, etc. that were all ground-up EV skateboards without ICE support.
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#114I firmly don’t care which plug wins as long as there is _a_ standard…
But with the wind blowing this way will there be an adapter for CCS vehicles already on the road? Or does one already exist?
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
AFAICT NACS (read, the "standard" and not Tesla's original release) speaks the same protocol as CCS, it just combines the AC and DC pins into, yes, a sleeker connector. So no real "benefit", and it actually adds complexity into the car itself. But theoretically one could also make a NACS -> CCS adapter, so it wouldn't end up as a CHAdeMO situation. EDIT: I forgot, the NACS connector is more or less self-aligning if y…
NACS and CCS currently use different protocols. Older Tesla's require a retrofit to support CCS1. ( https://shop.tesla.com/en_ca/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter ). However, I suspect a big part of the reason why this flurry of announcements is happening now is that Tesla is upgrading their superchargers to be able to speak the CCS protocol over NACS.
NACS uses CCS protocols, see Page 11 of https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Cha...
For DC charging, communication between the EV and EVSE shall be power line communication over the control pilot line as depicted in DIN 70121.
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#116Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…
An 8 stall Tesla charging station has a throughput of ~24 cars per hour. A 4 lane interstate can handle ~8k per hour. So, to support peak throughput between cities, you'd need ~2700 stalls every 100 miles or so. But this assumes 100% EVs. With current growth projections, we'd half this ~12 years from now. That seems completely doable, tbh.
Cost is an interesting issue. Capital costs aren't particularly excessive, at And, of course, the bulk of charging is always at home or a workplace on L2. TBH, people underestimate fixed costs in our grid today. It isn't clear what will happen, but I wouldn't bet on increased utilization automatically leading to higher rates.
EDIT: The above DCFC analysis assumes that 100% of those vehicles will need to charge. My guess is that this is radically high, even for big travel days. Real world might need a lot fewer stalls than that.
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#117I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.
Most people consider NACS to be a better connector, there are even CCS1 fans who admit that.
But in reality, they are all fine and it doesn't matter that much. What really matters is that there is a standard, whatever it is.
And it seems like NACS chargers will speak the CCS protocol, so those with CCS cars will just need a passive adapter to charge with NACS.
This is for North America, Europe is fine with CCS2, and NACS doesn't intent to change that. And compatibility is not that much of a problem since cars usually don't travel between Europe and North America, plus, for these rare cases, there are adapters.
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#118Tesla fans before 2023: The Supercharger network is just supplemental! Most charging is done at home, range anxiety is BS!
Tesla fans after 2023: The Supercharger is our most important competitive advantage! Any automaker not adapting our standard will die!
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#119I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.
CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000V). I think it will be a while before we see cars able to charge anywhere near this, but there is a trend right now of big EV pickups with massive batteries. Higher power chargers means faster charge times. The only downside I see with NACS is you can’t level 2…
I'm a little confused by fast charging standards, to be honest.
1MW is 20x the maximum draw of a standard house, and 800x the average draw of a US house. The hydro plant down the road generates 5MW.
It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.
Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are many brands of DCFC around me. EA obviously, EVGo, blink, 7Eleven, Road Ranger, Francis, and Volta. There's a few other travel centers on the routes I take which have their own branded chargers as well The earlier non-Tesla charging stations definitely had a rough start as there was practically zero market at all for them. The economics will change as more EVs are on the road. I do agree most early EV owner…
Since EvGO and Chargepoint seem to be public companies, I looked up their financial statements. It's not pretty. They are all bleeding money and that's with machines that people complain are down a lot. Chargepoint is in a slightly better spot because their Level 2 chargers seem to be somewhat better in the profitability department, but still losing tons of money. And that's not really surprising. If you look around…
I think the way to make it profitable is to install PV canopies over the charging stations. Then at least during the day the electricity is free.
Of course capital cost is higher because you still need a fat feed from the grid and transformers and coolers, and maintenance might be more costly, but free electricity during the day when most people are driving would almost certainly pay that back quickly.