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Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

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Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#31

Post by HDMI_Cable »

lockhouse wrote: post #25
massysett wrote: post #4

The point about the lifestyle industries is a good one. Europeans feel they have the good life, so why would they want to be more like Americans (who work like crazy, have no safety net, and live with random gun violence) or like the Chinese (who slide into even greater autocracy)? Perhaps the drawbacks of American and Chinese society are the very factors contributing to their economic growth?

I have to disagree with one point you made. Despite what the media would have you believe, gun violence in America is not random. The vast majority of it is gang related or suicide. We don’t have a gun problem, we have an inner city crime problem and a mental health problem, both probably fueled largely by the other problems you mentioned, such as our work culture and lack of social safety nets. Another point I’d lik…

> Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs.

I agree with you on your main point, but I'm not sure this one holds. Per NATO, defense spending is supposed to be around 2% of GDP, with most European countries spending 1-1.5% [1]. This is while the average European country spends ~20-25% of GDP on social services [2]. So if the US were to defund the military to 2% and leave Europe to their own devices, the budget shortfall would be a small portion of the amount European countries currently spend on all social programs.

--- [1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/584088/defense-expenditu... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we...

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#32

Post by HDMI_Cable »

3dbrows wrote: post #29
lockhouse wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with one point you made. Despite what the media would have you believe, gun violence in America is not random. The vast majority of it is gang related or suicide. We don’t have a gun problem, we have an inner city crime problem and a mental health problem, both probably fueled largely by the other problems you mentioned, such as our work culture and lack of social safety nets. Another point I’d lik…

> Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs. I see Americans make this comment a lot. Putting aside whether or not it is true that it enables higher domestic social spending, the comment never seems to come with the realisation that many Europeans deride the…

> many Europeans deride the “need” for higher defence spending. This is due to Europeans’ perception that American military adventurism is what creates the instability from which Europe requires American protection in the first place.

Right, European countries thought that, then the War in Ukraine happened. Germany, France, and other European nations have all increased their military budgets [1], indicating that they were, unfortunately, wrong. It's clear now that we still live in a world where conquest is still on the forefront of many dictator's minds.

And that's disregarding Europe's own adventures in other countries; just look at France's parlays into Mali or Mauritania, Greece and Turkey, or Italy and their actions in the Mediterranean.

--- [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/24/defence-spendi...

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#33

Post by yongjik »

lockhouse wrote: post #25
massysett wrote: post #4

The point about the lifestyle industries is a good one. Europeans feel they have the good life, so why would they want to be more like Americans (who work like crazy, have no safety net, and live with random gun violence) or like the Chinese (who slide into even greater autocracy)? Perhaps the drawbacks of American and Chinese society are the very factors contributing to their economic growth?

I have to disagree with one point you made. Despite what the media would have you believe, gun violence in America is not random. The vast majority of it is gang related or suicide. We don’t have a gun problem, we have an inner city crime problem and a mental health problem, both probably fueled largely by the other problems you mentioned, such as our work culture and lack of social safety nets. Another point I’d lik…

This sounds like a random Chinese person justifying the status quo by saying "The vast majority of people are never jailed, and people are jailed only if they keep talking about things they shouldn't. We don't have a dictatorship problem, we just have a lot of people who don't understand when to keep their mouth shut."

America absolutely has a horrible gun violence problem. Saying you are less likely to be shot as long as you avoid certain parts of the country doesn't cut it.

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#34

Post by etempleton »

3dbrows wrote: post #29
lockhouse wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with one point you made. Despite what the media would have you believe, gun violence in America is not random. The vast majority of it is gang related or suicide. We don’t have a gun problem, we have an inner city crime problem and a mental health problem, both probably fueled largely by the other problems you mentioned, such as our work culture and lack of social safety nets. Another point I’d lik…

> Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs. I see Americans make this comment a lot. Putting aside whether or not it is true that it enables higher domestic social spending, the comment never seems to come with the realisation that many Europeans deride the…

I don’t completely disagree with you and in fact would have said the same a few years ago, but you can see the aggressiveness of Russia and China when they feel they can get away with it. The US backing of Ukraine is instrumental to their ability to maintain their defense and the US Navy is perhaps the only thing stopping China from launch a full out invasion of Taiwan.

I think if the EU were to increase military spending there may be more pressure domestically in the US to pull back on military spending. A bit of a chicken and egg situation I suppose as there is no need until the US defense spending is curtailed.

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#35

Post by spacedcowboy »

lockhouse wrote: post #25
massysett wrote: post #4

The point about the lifestyle industries is a good one. Europeans feel they have the good life, so why would they want to be more like Americans (who work like crazy, have no safety net, and live with random gun violence) or like the Chinese (who slide into even greater autocracy)? Perhaps the drawbacks of American and Chinese society are the very factors contributing to their economic growth?

I have to disagree with one point you made. Despite what the media would have you believe, gun violence in America is not random. The vast majority of it is gang related or suicide. We don’t have a gun problem, we have an inner city crime problem and a mental health problem, both probably fueled largely by the other problems you mentioned, such as our work culture and lack of social safety nets. Another point I’d lik…

That's not entirely true though, at least (living here) it doesn't seem that way. It seems that barely a week goes by without some rando running amok with another shooting in a local mall or in a school somewhere in the state and these people are then deemed "mentally ill" and nothing happens to stop it happening again.

There sure must be a lot of mentally ill people in the USA...

As for the last point, the US does not have military bases overseas for any reason other than self-interest. It is a lot easier to project power around the world when you have a permanent base in the nearby neighbourhood - there is no altruism involved. The US chooses to do that, and makes arrangements with foreign governments, and should indeed bear that cost, although if you could possibly prevent your WAGs from driving on the wrong side of the road, killing the locals, and fleeing the country in future, we'd appreciate that.

And one last point I'd make is that I don't believe that it matters whether it's suicide, or gang-based, or black-on-black, or "mentally ill", or any other way in which Americans slice and dice the statistics to try and make them more palatable. It's still dead people. And that is truly awful.

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#36

Post by Convolutional »

HDMI_Cable wrote: post #32
3dbrows wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs. I see Americans make this comment a lot. Putting aside whether or not it is true that it enables higher domestic social spending, the comment never seems to come with the realisation that many Europeans deride the…

> many Europeans deride the “need” for higher defence spending. This is due to Europeans’ perception that American military adventurism is what creates the instability from which Europe requires American protection in the first place. Right, European countries thought that, then the War in Ukraine happened. Germany, France, and other European nations have all increased their military budgets [1], indicating that they…

[dead]

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#37

Post by 3dbrows »

etempleton wrote: post #34
3dbrows wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs. I see Americans make this comment a lot. Putting aside whether or not it is true that it enables higher domestic social spending, the comment never seems to come with the realisation that many Europeans deride the…

I don’t completely disagree with you and in fact would have said the same a few years ago, but you can see the aggressiveness of Russia and China when they feel they can get away with it. The US backing of Ukraine is instrumental to their ability to maintain their defense and the US Navy is perhaps the only thing stopping China from launch a full out invasion of Taiwan. I think if the EU were to increase military spe…

Quite, and the reality of the Russian invasion of Ukraine certainly trumps armchair rhetoric on this topic. I would only add that (until recently) many Europeans would have questioned whether their aggression exists in a vacuum (“are we provoking them?”). But that sort of navel gazing vanishes when artillery is fired in your direction.

There was a deep-seated aversion to rearmament owing to the memory of the Second World War, which is fading away, cajoled by events in Ukraine.

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#38

Post by 3dbrows »

HDMI_Cable wrote: post #32
3dbrows wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another point I’d like to make is that modern European lifestyles exist partly due to American military hegemony, which has allowed European nations to redirect their defense spending to social programs. I see Americans make this comment a lot. Putting aside whether or not it is true that it enables higher domestic social spending, the comment never seems to come with the realisation that many Europeans deride the…

> many Europeans deride the “need” for higher defence spending. This is due to Europeans’ perception that American military adventurism is what creates the instability from which Europe requires American protection in the first place. Right, European countries thought that, then the War in Ukraine happened. Germany, France, and other European nations have all increased their military budgets [1], indicating that they…

I would agree that the worldview of Europe is changing, given the sharp reality of its defences being tested.

Europe is of course (to state the extremely obvious) no stranger to its own imperial adventures. We might do well to stop that if we don’t want to trigger refugee flows and other outcomes we don’t want.

Re: Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

#40

Post by dang »

Convolutional wrote: post #36
HDMI_Cable wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many Europeans deride the “need” for higher defence spending. This is due to Europeans’ perception that American military adventurism is what creates the instability from which Europe requires American protection in the first place. Right, European countries thought that, then the War in Ukraine happened. Germany, France, and other European nations have all increased their military budgets [1], indicating that they…

[dead]

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