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How to write good code with C++11

channel9.msdn.com

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Re: How to write good code with C++11

#11

Post by rvkennedy »

krig wrote: post #7
moonchrome wrote: post #6

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++ (and JavaScript ?). Check out http://channel9.msdn.com/ , 5 out of ~9 videos about C++ on the front page. Meanwhile .NET projects like RX seem to be loosing steam, Silverlight is officially dead. I switched to JVM/Clojure so I haven't been following .NET/MS developments for the last year i…

Hasn't Microsoft been switching technology completely all the time? They do seem incredibly fickle. Does anyone remember Avalon/WPF?

Or, indeed, Silverlight. But big companies' big technology plays sometimes work, and sometimes don't. Sometimes you get lucky (like the people who never bothered to learn .NET). But I don't think that posting this video represents a major signifier of MS' current technology stance.

Re: How to write good code with C++11

#12

Post by rrreese »

krig wrote: post #7
moonchrome wrote: post #6

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++ (and JavaScript ?). Check out http://channel9.msdn.com/ , 5 out of ~9 videos about C++ on the front page. Meanwhile .NET projects like RX seem to be loosing steam, Silverlight is officially dead. I switched to JVM/Clojure so I haven't been following .NET/MS developments for the last year i…

Hasn't Microsoft been switching technology completely all the time? They do seem incredibly fickle. Does anyone remember Avalon/WPF?

WPF is used extensively for LOB apps in enterprise. It seems to have completely replaced windows forms except for legacy applications.

Re: How to write good code with C++11

#13

Post by moonchrome »

radicalbyte wrote: post #10
moonchrome wrote: post #6

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++ (and JavaScript ?). Check out http://channel9.msdn.com/ , 5 out of ~9 videos about C++ on the front page. Meanwhile .NET projects like RX seem to be loosing steam, Silverlight is officially dead. I switched to JVM/Clojure so I haven't been following .NET/MS developments for the last year i…

Erm, Microsoft are massive. They have lots of customers who have vastly differing needs which generally don't compete with each other. There are a LOT of Windows applications built on C++. Most games and most intensive applications are C++ based. Their corporate business customers generally use either C# or VB.Net with a large number still supporting legacy applications in Visual Basic. Their web customers naturally…

>Most games and most intensive applications are C++ based.

That's what I'm trying to say. .NET is finally in the place where it's good enough for games (except AAA titles), unlike JVM it supports value types and has true generics that can generate proper collections for them (big deal for games where a lot of the data is in small tuples of floats) and lot's of "unsafe" stuff where you get direct memory access. Mono guys even developed AOT compiler with LLVM optimizer and allowed you to drop things such as runtime bounds checking - you'd probably get to 10% of C++ code, the only remaining problem being non-deterministic GC pauses (can be worked around). Also I don't know why "intensive" applications can't be written on .NET with maybe a few drops to native C when needed. If it's scientific/cluster computing/number crunching then - I'm speculating - but I doesn't sound like you want to be running Windows anyway and Microsoft doesn't ship their C++ tools for other platforms so that doesn't sound reasonable.

But we're arguing different points here. I'm not asking - why is Microsoft supporting C++. What I'm saying is - they seem to be pushing a new fad with this "going native" stuff - and I don't see any rationale behind it. Why actively push for C++ over .NET, .NET doesn't seem to be getting nearly as much attention recently (I could be wrong tough) and let's face it C++ isn't exactly something that needs marketing to get noticed and picked up and it doesn't even seem to be MS strong point in the market.

Re: How to write good code with C++11

#15

Post by T-zex »

philbo wrote: post #9
moonchrome wrote: post #6

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++ (and JavaScript ?). Check out http://channel9.msdn.com/ , 5 out of ~9 videos about C++ on the front page. Meanwhile .NET projects like RX seem to be loosing steam, Silverlight is officially dead. I switched to JVM/Clojure so I haven't been following .NET/MS developments for the last year i…

I'm not sure that them pushing C++ equates to a switch away from .NET and managed code. What I take from it is that they're keen to foster a rich development eco-system on their platforms and they think that programming language diversity is an important part of this. As I write this, I realise there is a compelling counter-argument in Apple and Objective-C. So maybe not, I don't know.

Apple is not in enterprise market, not so many people write LOB apps with Objective-C.

Re: How to write good code with C++11

#16

Post by batista »

moonchrome wrote: post #6

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++ (and JavaScript ?). Check out http://channel9.msdn.com/ , 5 out of ~9 videos about C++ on the front page. Meanwhile .NET projects like RX seem to be loosing steam, Silverlight is officially dead. I switched to JVM/Clojure so I haven't been following .NET/MS developments for the last year i…

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++

.NET is for corporate stuff mostly. i.e in-company apps, corporate web apps and the like. They never touted .NET as a replacement for C++ for actual Windows apps and they never rewrote their apps (Office, etc) in .NET managed C#. In that area, .NET has been doing well. They don't propose people start using C++ for that, just as .NET was never meant for Desktop application development (and only niche apps use it, like only niche apps use Java for the desktop --Azureus etc).

As for the recent focus on C++, well C++ is having a major new version. And it was always their major weapon for application development (of which there are millions out there for Windows, from major stuff like Photoshop to the lamest shareware crap).

So, .NET/C++: orthogonal.

They could have picked up Mono after Novell, fund it separately (to avoid legal risks) and establish .NET as a truly cross-platform solution.

What sense would that make? So they give their customers a free and open source way to move away from Windows and run their .NET stuff in a Unix stack?

Re: How to write good code with C++11

#17

Post by batista »

moonchrome wrote: post #13
radicalbyte wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, Microsoft are massive. They have lots of customers who have vastly differing needs which generally don't compete with each other. There are a LOT of Windows applications built on C++. Most games and most intensive applications are C++ based. Their corporate business customers generally use either C# or VB.Net with a large number still supporting legacy applications in Visual Basic. Their web customers naturally…

>Most games and most intensive applications are C++ based. That's what I'm trying to say. .NET is finally in the place where it's good enough for games (except AAA titles), unlike JVM it supports value types and has true generics that can generate proper collections for them (big deal for games where a lot of the data is in small tuples of floats) and lot's of "unsafe" stuff where you get direct memory access. Mono g…

That's what I'm trying to say. .NET is finally in the place where it's good enough for games

No, it's not. Only for higher level game logic. Even Word made with .NET would fill sluggish. Each layer of convenience has a penalty.

It does gets better with Moore's law, but native also gets better along with it, so the gap remains.

Plus, we always do more stuff with our software, so CPU demands are getting higher too. It's not like software (especially games) is static, so that the managed/native gap will get insignificantly imperceptible at some point.

Re: How to write good code with C++11

#19

Post by stonemetal »

moonchrome wrote: post #13
radicalbyte wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, Microsoft are massive. They have lots of customers who have vastly differing needs which generally don't compete with each other. There are a LOT of Windows applications built on C++. Most games and most intensive applications are C++ based. Their corporate business customers generally use either C# or VB.Net with a large number still supporting legacy applications in Visual Basic. Their web customers naturally…

>Most games and most intensive applications are C++ based. That's what I'm trying to say. .NET is finally in the place where it's good enough for games (except AAA titles), unlike JVM it supports value types and has true generics that can generate proper collections for them (big deal for games where a lot of the data is in small tuples of floats) and lot's of "unsafe" stuff where you get direct memory access. Mono g…

Especially in the light of Windows 8 and ARM support. Have they announced anything like Apple's Fat binaries? Surely emulating ARM on x86 isn't the whole plan. If it is the marketing of "going native" is a bit amusing. I am just glad the static analysis tools are coming to the low end VS.

Re: How to write good code with C++11

#20

Post by fauigerzigerk »

batista wrote: post #16
moonchrome wrote: post #6

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++ (and JavaScript ?). Check out http://channel9.msdn.com/ , 5 out of ~9 videos about C++ on the front page. Meanwhile .NET projects like RX seem to be loosing steam, Silverlight is officially dead. I switched to JVM/Clojure so I haven't been following .NET/MS developments for the last year i…

Off topic - but I got to ask - what's up with Microsoft pushing C++ ? They were pushing .NET then all the sudden it's back to C++ .NET is for corporate stuff mostly. i.e in-company apps, corporate web apps and the like. They never touted .NET as a replacement for C++ for actual Windows apps and they never rewrote their apps (Office, etc) in .NET managed C#. In that area, .NET has been doing well. They don't propose p…

.NET is for corporate stuff mostly. i.e in-company apps, corporate web apps and the like. They never touted .NET as a replacement for C++ for actual Windows apps

I don't agree with that. MFC was used for lots of corporate desktop applications and some if not most of those are being replaced by Windows Forms and WPF apps. Replacing C++ MFC apps with .NET is exactly what Microsoft told Windows developers to do in the past 10 years and that's what they did.

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=MFC%2C+WPF%2C+winforms&#38...

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