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People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

psychologicalscience.org

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Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#211

Post by ang_cire »

Timon3 wrote: post #106
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Designing good studies is hard. That doesn’t mean we should just roll over and be satisfied with bad studies. The same applies to most studies about human diet and nutrition.

That is why I asked for some way to test for what GP complained about, and the only answer I got was "there is no way". Do you have a way to design a study so the complaint "well, the participants could be faking it" isn't valid? I'm legitimately asking, so far all I've gotten was "no way".

Not sure if I replied to you further up, or someone else, but in any scientific study you should be attempting to minimize the impact of the observation method used on the outcome of the data, and when it comes to answering questions truthfully, someone being aware that they are participating in a study does not do that at all. They should be using data from real-world situations in which people did not have an incentive to lie. Problem is, those are hard to find, and most studies are done in order for the researchers to get paid so they can pay rent and buy food.

There is far more incentive to conduct shoddy research in psychology (since as a corrolary to being hard to produce good evidence for, it's hard to produce good evidence against, which non-reproducability is often not treated as), than there is to only proceed with the studies you actually have sufficient known-good data to work with.

We have spent billions of dollars on single technology projects in order to answer questions about physics, like the LHC, because without those we often cannot actually get the data needed to answer certain questions.

Nothing equivalent is done in social psychology. There are no massive, multi-use infrastructures being built to engage with it.

While that is not the fault of social scientists, but of the devaluation of their field by the society around them, it still does mean they often do not have the necessary tools to do their jobs correctly.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#212

Post by pizzafeelsright »

frogger8 wrote: post #34

So many devs like me have wrote, approved and even committed code that we eventually convinced ourselves was correct.

Without a git log and belief my keys are secured, I've read code I've written that I would never have believed I could have written, both good and bad.

Memory is a fabrication. Scars are real. Wounds have stories.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#213

Post by kar5pt »

omgomgomgomg wrote: post #156

Especially innocent people under first time interrogation. Police, prosecutors and judges know this full well. Anything for conviction rates. I do not believe for a second you can convince any innocent person rhey have commites any serious crime unless they suffer from heavy amnesia.

Is there a typo in here? Your first comment contradicts your second.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#214

Post by FrustratedMonky »

andrewflnr wrote: post #207
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is impossible to discuss Psychology on HN. I think STEM type personalities are incapable of fathoming that the mind can be studied. I tend to think that the STEM personality has a lower than average ability for self-reflection, and thus they still think the mind is a mysterious phenomena that is beyond science. They aren't able to observe their own minds, and thus think it is impossible for anybody else to either.

Uh, no, HN is perennially fascinated with the mind, and grabs up any verifiable bits of information it can. That's why we've been exposed to all the myriad ways the mind is genuinely hard to study. We've seen the rise and fall of lots of studies, some plausible, some not, and we're tired of being conned on something important to us.

That is a lot more even minded opinion on it that I've seen in the last few weeks. Typically Psychology is called a pseudoscience, garbage, a-kin to astrology, filled with out right liars, conmen. There is very little patience to let the scientific process work itself out. Somehow other fields are allowed to grow, but Psychology is judged very harshly. Some studies aren't able to be replicated, so the whole field is bad.

At least, that is what I've seen in last few weeks. Maybe it hasn't always been like this.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#215

Post by andrewflnr »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #214
andrewflnr wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no, HN is perennially fascinated with the mind, and grabs up any verifiable bits of information it can. That's why we've been exposed to all the myriad ways the mind is genuinely hard to study. We've seen the rise and fall of lots of studies, some plausible, some not, and we're tired of being conned on something important to us.

That is a lot more even minded opinion on it that I've seen in the last few weeks. Typically Psychology is called a pseudoscience, garbage, a-kin to astrology, filled with out right liars, conmen. There is very little patience to let the scientific process work itself out. Somehow other fields are allowed to grow, but Psychology is judged very harshly. Some studies aren't able to be replicated, so the whole field is…

> we're tired of being conned on something important to us.

Sorry, but psychology as a field is in fact full of BS; probably not outright lies, but shoddy science. It's treated harshly compared to other fields because it cannot live up to the same standards they do, even considering times when those fields screw up badly. It's not a recent thing, either. The replication crisis is old, and I haven't seen any indication that the field has put any effort into deciding to "grow".

I haven't noticed a change in HN's attitude either, but maybe that's because I don't tend to bother with those threads anymore.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#216

Post by FrustratedMonky »

andrewflnr wrote: post #215
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a lot more even minded opinion on it that I've seen in the last few weeks. Typically Psychology is called a pseudoscience, garbage, a-kin to astrology, filled with out right liars, conmen. There is very little patience to let the scientific process work itself out. Somehow other fields are allowed to grow, but Psychology is judged very harshly. Some studies aren't able to be replicated, so the whole field is…

> we're tired of being conned on something important to us. Sorry, but psychology as a field is in fact full of BS; probably not outright lies, but shoddy science. It's treated harshly compared to other fields because it cannot live up to the same standards they do, even considering times when those fields screw up badly. It's not a recent thing, either. The replication crisis is old, and I haven't seen any indicatio…

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying HN is interested in the mind. If HN is interested, what other field that is doing Psychology, but not called Psychology, is acceptable that they are following?

For this field, HN doesn't seem able to work through scientific issues. In other fields if a study is shoddy, it gets called out or modified. Hypothesis are re-formed, re-tested. But in HN, there is no second chance. The entire field is BS because of a few bad studies.

It seems like this field is ridiculed more because HN does NOT understand what they are talking about on the subject. Why do you think this subject is not important to others too, that are improving the field, and are making corrections. If people on HN finds this subject important, it's a pretty odd way to discuss it.

I can only assume this default reaction is very much a 'group-think' response. Kind of like how people stormed the capital to fight the 'woke-left', on HN it is a angry group fighting the 'shoddy Psychologist', both are similarly in the dark. Meaning, consumed by anger against a miss-understood other group. Seemingly just angry and very much not wanting to understand themselves.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#217

Post by FrustratedMonky »

andrewflnr wrote: post #215
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a lot more even minded opinion on it that I've seen in the last few weeks. Typically Psychology is called a pseudoscience, garbage, a-kin to astrology, filled with out right liars, conmen. There is very little patience to let the scientific process work itself out. Somehow other fields are allowed to grow, but Psychology is judged very harshly. Some studies aren't able to be replicated, so the whole field is…

> we're tired of being conned on something important to us. Sorry, but psychology as a field is in fact full of BS; probably not outright lies, but shoddy science. It's treated harshly compared to other fields because it cannot live up to the same standards they do, even considering times when those fields screw up badly. It's not a recent thing, either. The replication crisis is old, and I haven't seen any indicatio…

>"That's why we've been exposed to all the myriad ways the mind is genuinely hard to study. "

Guess this is what I don't get. It seems like HN accepts that studying the mind is hard. But then seems equally to not understand that hard things take time and often have false starts and difficulty dialing in measurements.

The ancient Greeks thought atoms were made of earth, wind, fire, water. We don't call them BS because it doesn't replicate. Psychology is relatively new, yet we want instant results, instant gratification.

We've had centuries to figure out how to measure temperature. But Psychology takes a few decades and still struggles to measure the mind, and that means it is BS?

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#218

Post by andrewflnr »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #217
andrewflnr wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're tired of being conned on something important to us. Sorry, but psychology as a field is in fact full of BS; probably not outright lies, but shoddy science. It's treated harshly compared to other fields because it cannot live up to the same standards they do, even considering times when those fields screw up badly. It's not a recent thing, either. The replication crisis is old, and I haven't seen any indicatio…

>"That's why we've been exposed to all the myriad ways the mind is genuinely hard to study. " Guess this is what I don't get. It seems like HN accepts that studying the mind is hard. But then seems equally to not understand that hard things take time and often have false starts and difficulty dialing in measurements. The ancient Greeks thought atoms were made of earth, wind, fire, water. We don't call them BS because…

No, we actually do call BS on the Greeks. They didn't even have any experiments to replicate. It's sheer luck that they got the "atom" thing right, and no other aspects of matter.

When psychology is prepared to take its inherent difficulty seriously, we'll listen. But as far as we can tell, they're still trying to take shortcuts. (And even if you complain that's because they're underfunded or something, it doesn't matter. The results are just as compromised.)

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#219

Post by FrustratedMonky »

andrewflnr wrote: post #218
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"That's why we've been exposed to all the myriad ways the mind is genuinely hard to study. " Guess this is what I don't get. It seems like HN accepts that studying the mind is hard. But then seems equally to not understand that hard things take time and often have false starts and difficulty dialing in measurements. The ancient Greeks thought atoms were made of earth, wind, fire, water. We don't call them BS because…

No, we actually do call BS on the Greeks. They didn't even have any experiments to replicate. It's sheer luck that they got the "atom" thing right, and no other aspects of matter. When psychology is prepared to take its inherent difficulty seriously, we'll listen. But as far as we can tell, they're still trying to take shortcuts. (And even if you complain that's because they're underfunded or something, it doesn't ma…

Sorry. Don't get it. I did quick search and see dozen articles from Psychologist, discussing the replication problem and how to deal with it, how to create better experiments. And, another dozen discussing which ones DO REPLICATE, and which don't, and what is the difference.

50% of experiments do replicate, so maybe it is just taking a glass-half-full attitude.

The field is very much actively dealing on this and improving. So not sure what proof's HN would need.

That is why I'm saying, right now the attitude seems very much be "we really diss-like these fields (because we're so biased against anything that isn't STEM), so they really can't do anything right no matter the evidence".

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#220

Post by madsbuch »

ang_cire wrote: post #209
madsbuch wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Presumably they would generally only torture people they believed were guilty, so in their system of belief, they are truthfully guilty. the question I am asking is whether you can divorce truth from confession. if the society cannot believe that a confessing person is indeed guilty, then it will not uphold societal order.

Gladiatorial combat was used to help preserve the social order. Public executions were often just that but skipping the combat part, and people would often cheer them on like a football game. You'd be surprised how little people care about innocence and justice. They care more about the entertainment value and reddit drama of discussing the convictions than actual justice or truth. People want to hear that bad things…

I think the point is believe.

I agree that it takes just little to believe anything. But my point is that we can not divorce the belief

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