Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor • Hacker News Board

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#121

Post by anamax » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:03 AM UTC

ajays wrote: post #42

anamax wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On another note: I think minimum wage should be much higher; say, $20/hour. This may not sound like a good idea, but think about it: it should be high enough that a freeloader has serious economic incentive to get off his ass and look for work! Another way to look at it is: I would much rather pay more for something, and have that extra money directly go to a worker's pocket; than route the money circuitously throu…

> How about work as the incentive? Here's how I look at it. You can either apply force (by making the urban poor work at some crappy job) ; or you can apply attraction, and have them move themselves (by offering a significant economic incentive to work). Ye old carrot and stick solution. :) I believe the former (stick) has been tried many times, and it doesn't work quite as well. People just don't like others telling…

> You can either apply force (by making the urban poor work at some crappy job)

I'm not suggesting applying force. I'm saying that they only get money for doing crappy jobs. If they don't want to do the crappy jobs, fine, but no money.

> Looking at the number of urban poor, the current system isn't working.

The current system rewards bad behavior.

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#122

Post by gojomo » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:03 AM UTC

imcqueen wrote: post #120

gojomo wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage laws destroy jobs and reduce overall welfare; they should be repealed rather than extended to novel business arrangements. Minimum wages are implemented with noble motivations, but are based on a broken mental model, where the edict alone can lift everyone who would have made less up to the new statutory minimum. In fact, many of the people who would be employed at lower wages aren't (yet) productive eno…

without minimum wage wouldn't simple Supply and Demand take over and cause wages to plummet for unskilled workers? Compare it to software engineering, lots of demand and not enough qualified people = well compensated software engineers without the minimum you are correct that theoretically more jobs would exist, but at a pay rate so low that it would create an incentive not to work at all. the government assistance r…

This problem, if it arose, can rather quickly self-correct. If people choose not to work at all at the offered rate, you offer more, until you have the workers you need. (Similarly, if you need better workers, you offer more, as long as it is still profitable to do so.)

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#123

Post by hippich » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:13 AM UTC

shingen wrote: post #4

What this article is effectively advocating, but can't or won't say outright, is that America needs the ability to pay people less than the minimum wage. Someone working all day at mechanical turk, is likely to fall below the federal minimum wage rate in terms of what they're pulling down per hour. Is it ok for companies to utilize mass scale labor at what becomes in reality a sub minimum wage rate? Particularly if m…

Want to enforce minimum wages laws? No problems - it will just change work flow to workers from other countries where local ones will be left without one extra option.

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#124

Post by Drbble » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:28 AM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #122

imcqueen wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

without minimum wage wouldn't simple Supply and Demand take over and cause wages to plummet for unskilled workers? Compare it to software engineering, lots of demand and not enough qualified people = well compensated software engineers without the minimum you are correct that theoretically more jobs would exist, but at a pay rate so low that it would create an incentive not to work at all. the government assistance r…

This problem, if it arose, can rather quickly self-correct. If people choose not to work at all at the offered rate, you offer more, until you have the workers you need. (Similarly, if you need better workers, you offer more, as long as it is still profitable to do so.)

What if people band together into a sort of Union, and agree (in a binding way, with punishment for defectors) as a group (through some sort of majority vote, since consensus is impossible in a large group) to demand a certain wage?

You'd have... a republic with a minimum wage law.

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#125

Post by Drbble » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:32 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #116

jessedhillon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... then I'd suggest that we start with some customer research. Do the jobless urban poor want to stand at a terminal in the street and perform menial tasks for spare change? In SV it's very popular to assume that people are poor because they don't want to work. To the question of what poor people would want to do, the answer is very often "who cares what they want, they're poor!" It's not this blatant -- often it'…

In SV it's very popular to assume that people are poor because they don't want to work. This is more or less true. Go look up labor force participation rates of the poor - most poor adults don't have a job, and aren't looking for one.

Why do you think that looking is the same as wanting?

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#126

Post by Drbble » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:36 AM UTC

pron wrote: post #63

stroboskop wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being downvoted because most people on Hacker News disagree with you. Also, because your tone may be perceived as slightly hysterical. I doubt young age of commenters is the reason for their stance and for many intentions are as good as they pay. Crucially, most people here imagine themselves as (future) bosses and do not empathize with the poor operating mechanical turks. Also consider that many here unconsc…

I hope you are wrong about this. And my tone is more than slightly hysterical - I am downright panicking. If Ayn-Randian ideology has taken over the hearts of young Silicon Valley startup entrepreneurs, and if that is the current way of thinking in Northern California of all places, then we've got a problem. But I think you're wrong. I think what we're reading here is not a heartfelt, confident business or social ide…

There is a strong Randian thread in SV culture, as there is in most communities where overprivelege mixes with social awkwardness, but it doesn't dominate. Plenty of other folks believe in doing well by doing good.

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#127

Post by Drbble » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:39 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #117

pron wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Pretty soon I bet we'll hear some suggestions - all backed up by hard data, mind you - to reinstate slavery, only this time around it will be voluntary. After all, slave owners fed and clothed their slaves. It will certainly be an improvement over the way some people are living now, so that's a win-win, right? Then some people will say that slavery is wrong, plain wrong, whether it's voluntary or not, and wheth…

...to reinstate slavery, only this time around it will be voluntary. Go look up the definition of slavery. Your post is internally contradictory.

Even if entered into voluntarily, without an opportunity to exit slavery is still the correct term.

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#128

Post by Drbble » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:40 AM UTC

tnuc wrote: post #75

Mechanical Turk takes up to 30 days to approve payment for any task, so instant payment is out of the question. Having a terminal where someone can sit for hours on end being the same place as a cash dispenser isn't the best idea. The users would probably be better off breaking into it. They need to be separated. Perhaps a better solution would be to start a sweat shop full of terminals where the sweatshop owner pays…

These exist in China and India.

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#129

Post by Drbble » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:42 AM UTC

Hominem wrote: post #31

I will do him one better. How about he opens a storefront with locked down machines that do nothing but mechanical Turk and rents them out for 1 an hour. Maybe wow gold farming . Anyone have an concerns about the ethics of this? On one had 6 net is better than 0, on the other hand it is fairly predatory.

Why lock them down? Why not just rent computers for $1/hr, like at a cyber cafe? That is a solved problem.

Re: Mechanical Turk Stations for the Urban Poor

#130

Post by Drbble » Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 4:43 AM UTC

Duff wrote: post #109

The problem with a "solution" like this is same as the problem that the minium wage presents: it is insufficient to live on, and less than the value of social services benefits. If you want to magically improve the plight of the poor, make cheap housing available in urban areas without a qualification process (ie. Section 8, public housing)

Wall Street tried that, by destroying the real estate market.