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Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

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Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#61

Post by the_af »

Delk wrote: post #41
badsectoracula wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what target audience really want. IIRC it was the other way around, the pitch document went overboard with that because it was what the executives/publisher believed audiences would want :-) Remember this wasn't the design document but the document to convince those with money to spend that money to make the game.

IIRC the game does have a couple of female characters that could be seen as catering to that kind of a stereotype, at least in terms of appearance if not necessarily the story. But I also got the overall vibe that the pitch document goes overboard in terms of emphasizing that aspect as well as other kinds of shallow badassery such as the violence of the game. The pitch document also makes a big fuss about "ego mastur…

The disconnect between the look and the actual description of the two main female characters, Fall-from-Grace and Annah, is interesting.

Annah looks like a bimbo in her 3D model, but in game most NPCs find her repulsive or at least off-putting. She's not sexualized in-game, but her portrait is that of a "sexy babe".

Conversely, Fall-from-Grace is described in-game as a tempting succubus (though she doesn't behave like one) and is supposed to be extremely attractive, yet her 3D portrait is rendered in shadows, very skinny, with scary bat wings and no hint of "babe" characteristics. She is not "sexy".

I wonder if the people who drew the character portraits were going by the early pitch draft, because the disconnect with the actual characters is extreme.

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#62

Post by xanathar »

fbdab103 wrote: post #51
xanathar wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Planescape Torment extreme fanboy and... I have to agree. But it's still worth playing, it is still better than the median cRPG almost 25 years later, and it remains a milestone in cRPGs history: i.e. just like Sgt Peppers or Dark Side of the Moon are still worth listening today.

You do not get to lay down such criticism without offering alternative suggestions. What is your top-tier classic or modern cRPG? Edit: Not a fanboy defensiveness or anything. Just rare to see the contrarian opinion on this, and genuinely curious. Other than the trash combat, I really enjoyed my time with PST.

I think all things considered BG2 aged better - it had less exciting plot, but it balanced better all the aspects.

That said, I would nudge Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder: Kingmaker above PST as they have an equally good amount of story, NPC interaction, they balance combat better. Pillars II, Wrath of the Righteous and Tides of Numenera, otoh, are below the PST bar in my opinion but ymmv depending on tastes. On the Divinity side, DOS:2 is also a good competitor in the list, although I find it the story tends to be too diluted by combat.

Notably many of the titles I listed above have had Avellone involved at some point (I think he had been involved with Numenera, DOS:2, Pillars I and Kingmaker, maybe more).

I was very skeptical about BG3, especially because even if I listed DOS:2 above, I didn't really like it too much, I'm no Larian fan. But I played the early access and it seems to be golden good so far.

Otoh I replayed (for the billionth time?) all IE games recently and while I still consider PST to be the best IE game ever (only BG2 comes close) it's definitely not uniform. The plot weakens after leaving Sigil, and so do side quests and non-linearity (it's actually pretty linear overall, but after Sigil it doesn't even maintain the illusion). Even the interactions with NPCs are sometimes lackluster (e.g. I would have "pushed" Morte more on the "don't trust the skull" bit) I felt (but it's personal opinion I'd say) that many interactions in PoE went deeper than that.

Anyway, these are opinions and I know of at least one PST fan who would trash the PoEs, Numenera and the Pathfinders (but loved DOS:2), so YMMV.

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#63

Post by the_af »

v-erne wrote: post #11

>> Tons of Total Babes: This game will have lots of babes that make the player go “wow.” >> There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes, and even undead babes. Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what target audience really want. It almost like finding "and its also addictive, in most profitable kind of way" in Marlboro brand pitch deck. Its kinda refrshing.

The actual game is nothing like this at all.

There are a couple of unfortunate character portraits of "babes", that don't match the actual character descriptions or behavior. It's the only juvenile aspect to the game, along with some of Morte's quips.

The actual game is neither juvenile nor a power fantasy. It is an anti-power-fantasy. It is about atonement for past misdeeds. Killing is often not the solution, and in fact there is a "pacifist" walkthrough.

Most of the characters you find are mentally and physically scarred by things done to them by [redacted].

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#64

Post by Arainach »

Certhas wrote: post #34
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have rose tinted glasses when they talk about old games. PS:T was a cut above the other cRPGs of its time mainly because it had adequate writing and an engaging story when most other cRPGs were trite. Still everything after Raven’s maze is just average until the ending where it gets good again and the gameplay outside of dialogue is frankly uninteresting. It’s in a lot of way like the original Dark Soul whose…

Talking about the gameplay outside the dialogue is a bit silly though. Why people still love it are writing and plot. The mechanics were simply the bog standard mechanics of the day and don't matter much. Which games would you say have bested it in terms of writing/plot? I see a few but not very many really. Disco Elysium would be the first but that also stands alone in terms of quality. (That said, don't get to game…

Dialog doesn't make it "one of the best cRPGs of all time" or even necessarily worth playing in 2023. That's the rose tinted glasses.

The gameplay is absolutely an important part of "should I play this now".

Plenty of games that were good when they came out aren't worth investing hours in today. Bioshock Infinite comes to mind.

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#65

Post by throwaway173738 »

User23 wrote: post #53
watashiato wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who haven't played the game, it should be noted that the game is nothing like what the pitch implies. PS:T is a well written and introspective RPG and in this capacity it is rivaled by only a handful of contenders.

Disco Elysium, which I haven't gotten around to playing yet so I have no personal opinion, is the only contender I can think of. The only other game I can think of with that level of narrative craft is the Marathon series, which isn't an RPG, but rather an FPS. I'm kind of surprised Marathon 4 hasn't been kickstarted yet. There is definitely a whole lot of money on the table there, as the System Shock remake proves.

Having played both Disco Elysium and Planescape, this is very accurate. Depending on the choices you make you will find yourself with the same plot points accomplished in totally different ways in both games. And different choices will go off the rails too.

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#66

Post by throwaway173738 »

rogual wrote: post #24
pavlov wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both human and Asian? That’s real representation.

Don't know why you're flagged, that's hilarious. The PDF literally lists "Asian" as a category of babe alongside "Undead" and separately from "human".

That’s definitely pandering to the executives.

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#67

Post by sn41 »

I played Planescape back around 2015 or so, for the first time. I felt an uncanny similarity to the movie "Memento" by Christopher Nolan, which, coincidentally, was filmed around the same time, developing on themes from the earlier movie "Following" (that came out in 1998).

Then I came to know that this was actually a major point of discussion, with various theories swirling around it.

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#68

Post by j1elo »

pluijzer wrote: post #21
j1elo wrote: post #3

What were the chances? I installed Planescape Torment last night, to play around a bit with it. It's been sitting in my "to-try" list for at least 15 years! I'm however not very fond of having to sit down on my desk to play games with keyboard and mouse, though... I already spend enough of my life sitting in the exact same position for work. That alone discourages me from playing several old games I own (and not so o…

PS:T is also available for iOS, Android and Switch. The controls have been adapted for the platforms and play great. And ofcourse like others have pointed out the Steam Deck is amazing also older games. The new Monkey Island is also available for atleast the Switch btw.

Sadly the deprecation of 32-bit Android apps has done a lot of damage to backwards compatibility...

Wonder what would have happened if Android was a Microsoft platform :-)

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/87197/pst-ee-on-androi...

Basically, the game doesn't work any more on my Android 13 device, because devs need to go back to it and recompile the sources for 64-bit ARM.

Naturally with a change like that with no compatibility layer available, there will be tons of apps and games left behind as abandonware, because their devs have better things to do (if they are even still around, at all!) than going back and recompiling all their source code. We'll see if BeamDog ever gets to it for PS:T!

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#69

Post by Popeyes »

sho_hn wrote: post #57
ksaun wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe your recollection to be accurate. The lead designer (Chris Avellone), who I think was the primary author of this document, is often playful and energetic/hyperbolic with his language, yet is extremely focused and professional in his approach to the actual game design. (I.e., this exact type of disconnect between the energy/tone of this document and the energy/tone of the game is consistent with what I know…

This might be widely inappropriate to bring up, but do you know how Chris' lawsuit against his cancellers is going? Like many players I used to look up to his work, and then was of course taken aback by the serious allegations against him; it's one of the messiest he said/she said cases I've encountered, though. Still very curious about the ultimate outcome. Edit: https://kotaku.com/fallout-new-vegas-avellone-sexual-…

https://chrisavellone.medium.com/joint-statement-from-kariss...

They completely recanted their allegations and paid him a sum of money.

Re: Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]

#70

Post by throwaway173738 »

becquerel wrote: post #15
v-erne wrote: post #11

>> Tons of Total Babes: This game will have lots of babes that make the player go “wow.” >> There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes, and even undead babes. Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what target audience really want. It almost like finding "and its also addictive, in most profitable kind of way" in Marlboro brand pitch deck. Its kinda refrshing.

I was skeptical at first, but the babes are even undead? Truly this must be the RPG of a generation

> Did you see the way she was looking at me boss?

> You mean that slack-jawed beyond the grave look?

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