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People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

psychologicalscience.org

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Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#121
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about anger as a defense makes a lot of sense to me. The cost to the individual whose opinion might be changed is pretty big: you will have to re-evaluate any thoughts that branches off the thought that is being challenged, so it might have a cascading effect. There needs to either be some natural stopping points (i.e. the thought graph is acyclic), or some other mechanism must keep us from going in circles.

Not convincing in the general sense at least; I get high on learning new things that change my perspective entirely -- and that doesn't seem to be uncommon

But is that literally always the case? Most of the time I also like learning new things, even things that change my perspective entirely. But that is when I am in the mood to actually engage with knowledge. There are other times when I'm much more annoyed by new knowledge going against what I already know. Let's say I'm doing my taxes, and my tax program has a popup "here are 804 changes to the tax code from last year", I will not be happy about having to learn that.

Maybe this difference is caused by the perceived usefulness of new information. If there is potential for my new perspective to greatly help me, it might be worth exploring more than if I can't see any way for it to be productive.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t downvote your replies (I’m pretty sure in general you can’t downvote any replies to yourself on HN) so you’ll have to take that complaint up with someone else. Anyway, what, I’m “more than welcome” to add these points but in some other, unspecified way than I did that you would have preferred? I’m not really sure what your issue is. I think it’s encouraging complacency to say these things happened in the Orie…

Ooof. Well that is rather uncalled for. https://aboutjapan.japansociety.org/content.cfm/whats_the_ma... Moving on… The GP quoted the article and found interesting anecdotes of said quote in history and brought them into the discussion with background information backing up the anecdotes. That’s interesting and additive to the discussion! Your comment did none of that except to slander another side of the world. This…

I'm familiar with the connotations of the term "Orient," but that was kind of the point of using it in this instance -- I think having Maoist struggle sessions be the first thing that comes to mind is the same kind of thinking about how something is exotic and foreign when it isn't. Maybe you would have gotten my point better if I put the term in scare quotes. I think the attacks on me as "not a decent member of society" are just kind of personal attacks that aren't very germane to the discussion.

I think the whole charge of "whataboutism" is pretty bankrupt for reasons I think this article pretty accurately sums up: https://theoutline.com/post/8610/united-states-russia-whatab...

> Try to imagine the following world: the Chinese Communist Party accuses the U.S. of crimes against humanity in the Middle East, and Washington does not turn around and say something like, “What are you talking about! You have one million people in re-education camps in the Xinjiang Province!” In this imaginary world, I guess, US officials would respect the fact that China is only talking about the Middle East right now, and out of politeness refuse to talk about anything else. To do so would be crude whataboutism.

> Can you imagine that happening? Of course not. English-language commentators would contest the right of Xi Jinping to set the terms of the debate, and they’d use the opportunity to draw attention to human rights violations in China, which would be a good thing. Because, I think, it’s good when we expose and condemn any crimes against humanity, no matter the motivations for the revelation.

> Let’s try an arena much smaller than the geopolitical. What if a man comes home, and says to his wife:

> “Susan, you didn’t take out the trash!” he says.

> “Brad, you have never taken out the trash once in your life,” she replies.

> Would it be fair for him to turn, smugly clutching a copy of The Economist, and say, “Susan, this is not about me. I can’t believe you are doing whataboutism”?

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in this case for the follow up interviews there was no incentive to lie.

They’re incentivized to tell the experimenters what they want to hear so they can get paid and go home faster.

In the follow ups they are simply asked to recount and give their confidence of recounting. It’s only the original interview they are told to try to remember details even if they can’t.

The premise of the study is that the first interview is used to plant the memories. The follow up interviews are to see if they stick. They specifically aren’t trying to intervene in those interviews.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#124

That's why confession obtained in unrestricted police interrogation can't be the only part of justice process. There first has to be evidence to detain and interrogate someone in the first place. The suspect must be informed of the right to remain silent and consequences of saying anything, and given an option to consult with a lawyer. Judges and juries should demand that collaborating evidence is presented to show t…

[deleted]

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#125
post #75

Interesting that the entire article had nothing to mention about the Reid technique [1]. The Reid technique has been used by law enforcement to convince criminals of confessions. Many confessions were found to be false. In the book by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson [2], they cover false confessions in depth with a few court cases, as well as police techniques to invoke cognitive dissonance in the accused. Callout to…

Pretty illuminating that the origin story of the technique is it eliciting what was later revealed as a false confession that sentenced an innocent man to life in prison.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#126
post #98

Anyone interested should just Google 'Elizabeth Loftus'. She convinced people of a bunch of things that never happened, some of them very quickly. Standard example is getting people to tell stories about meeting Bugs Bunny in Disneyland, but there was also some crime stuff, I think past trauma as well. Law enforcement has their quotas and they'll use any garbage they can to fill it, but it's kind of hilarious that pe…

Loftus has also been involved with the cases of [Robert Durst, Ghislaine Maxwell, Harvey Weinstein, Jerry Sandusky,] Ted Bundy, O.J. Simpson, Rodney King, Oliver North, Martha Stewart, Lewis Libby, Michael Jackson, the Menéndez brothers and the Oklahoma City bombers.

Completely normal. Absolutely no reason to question her work.

She did some CIA consulting, too.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#127
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to discount the replication crisis, but I'd like to ask you the same question again: how, specifically, do you design any psychological study that you can't discard with "well, they could be faking it"?

It being extremely difficult or impossible to design a convincing study doesn't make the other ones convincing.

I am not saying that any study is or is not convincing. I am literally just asking: how could you define a test for this? I am not stating that any individual study is good or bad or anything in between. I want to know: if I design a study, how do I design it in a way that makes it a good study in regards to this question?

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re incentivized to tell the experimenters what they want to hear so they can get paid and go home faster.

Having participated in plenty of these (as it was required for class credit, and they also paid reasonably well for an in-between classes hour type thing to go do), the 'researchers' can also be completely obnoxious. One study I was involved in had me listen to some rant about how women do better on a math exam I was about to take, being left in a room for about 10 minutes alone, and then being given the exam - on pi…

That just sounds like bad research. In general if you know their angle that clearly then they’ve failed at how to do a research study of this type — obnoxious or not. It sounds like they don’t know how to do this type of research.

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#129
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we just stop studying psychology completely?

No, but the focus for studies like this should be on nonvoluntary responses like reaction times and EEG in my opinion.

How do you know that the EEG monitoring doesn't influence people? Couldn't they subconsciously fake it due to being actively monitored?

Re: People can be convinced they committed a crime that never happened (2015)

#130
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you propose we differentiate between students "playing along" and students really having false memories? Couldn't I discard any psychological study by saying "well, the participants could have faked it", since it's by definition not falsifiable (any test could also be faked)?

Yes, you could discard any study under that rationale among others. And the interesting thing is you'd likely be far more 'informed' for doing so. Social psychology has the lowest replication rate of any field. You're looking at top journals with replication rates in the twenties. [1] What this means is that if you were to take any give study in social psychology, and simply assume it was 'wrong' (either saying the o…

> What this means is that if you were to take any give study in social psychology, and simply assume it was 'wrong' (either saying the opposite of the truth, or claiming a statistically significant effect when there really is none), then you'd, on average, be dramatically more 'informed' than somebody taking the studies at face value.

The parenthetical seems like a problem to me. In the sense that, maybe you are right and most psychology research tells us nothing. But that won’t tell us the opposite is true. There are lots of possible outcomes in a psychological experiment, “the opposite” is ill defined.

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