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Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

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131–140 of 473 posts

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#131

100k years. Reality is that in 50 years the fuel will start leaking and then the cost of securing the vicinity/repairs will be too high for anyone to bear. Govt will try to ignore scientific warnings while some politicians will criticize the govt for not doing anything while others will say it's a waste of money. After some pressure, the govt will start repair work but in a few years the cost of repairs will be 3-10x…

> the fuel will start leaking

Do you believe the Simpsons view of radioactive waste being glowing, liquid goo?

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#132
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less common side of the argument a friend presented to me. We shouldn't use nuclear in mainstream use cases now because we don't harness enough of its power. We're basically depleting a future fuel supply before we even know how to use it properly. It has more value to us in the future when utilization is at higher %. Personally not sure which side of the fence I sit on. It definitely has benefits now, but we also ha…

This is just a bad take. There is almost unimaginable amount Thorium and Uranium on the planet. We will never run out. In reality, volcanic activity keeps transporting thorium up, so it borderline renewable. We have energy for 100s or 1000s of years with nuclear, even used inefficiently. Sure it fucking sucks we are only mostly U-235 and we are doing it inefficiently, but stopping progress because of that is just dum…

> "It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever."

> Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said.

> "Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert."

> "That's not forever."

> "All right, then. Billions and billions of years. Ten billion, maybe. Are you satisfied?"

> Lupov put his fingers through his thinning hair as though to reassure himself that some was still left and sipped gently at his own drink. "Ten billion years isn't forever."

> "Well, it will last our time, won't it?"

> "So would the coal and uranium."

> "All right, but now we can hook up each individual spaceship to the Solar Station, and it can go to Pluto and back a million times without ever worrying about fuel. You can't do that on coal and uranium. Ask Multivac, if you don't believe me.

> "I don't have to ask Multivac. I know that."

> "Then stop running down what Multivac's done for us," said Adell, blazing up, "It did all right."

> "Who says it didn't? What I say is that a sun won't last forever. That's all I'm saying. We're safe for ten billion years, but then what?" Lupow pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. "And don't say we'll switch to another sun."

> There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov's eyes slowly closed. They rested.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#133

The half-life of carbon 14 is 5,730 years. All living things are composed partially of carbon 14. But nobody worries about the radiation from it. Anything with a long half-life is emitting very, very little radiation. Anything with a short half-life isn't going to last long.

You are forgetting concentration. C14 isn't a significant issue because only one in every trillion carbon atoms is C14 - the rest is stable.

Meanwhile, high-level nuclear waste is a densely concentrated soup of spicy elements, all neatly packed together to provide a really bad day to anyone stumbling onto it.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#134

I just don't like this, a huge amount of money spent for nothing. This fuel can be managed just fine above ground. Yes maybe ever couple 100 years you might have to move it, who cares. If your society isn't capable managing nuclear waste then nobody will care anymore anyway. Also, this is not 'waste' there are interesting and unique materials there that might be relevant in the next 100+ years. Not to mention that th…

In the extreme, the have been politicians and other leaders who came in and decided to undo decisions of their predecessors for petty reasons. A memorable example being the US' 45th President. If this high cost is in the long run cheaper than relying on 10+ generations to do the right thing, it's probably a worthwhile cost.

Generations 1 through 9 don't really need to do anything. Generation 10 will have a bit of work to do, but much less work than it takes to deal with it now. The really radioactive components of the waste (the fission products) decay away after a few hundred years.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#135
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one would ever come up with usecases for more than 512kb of memory without first having access to 512kb of memory. You need to use stuff. Only then can you have better ideas.

That was a paraphrased quote, made by bill gates. I think we’ve somehow found usecases for >512kb of memory, which was my point. Edit: I’ve conflated parent and grandparents points, I was in the middle of avoiding a social situation while posting.

> That was a paraphrased quote, made by bill gates

The quote was "640K", and Bill Gates probably didn't actually say it, at least not in a general context, vs "... to run MS-DOS and Visicalc" or similar.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#136
post #133

The half-life of carbon 14 is 5,730 years. All living things are composed partially of carbon 14. But nobody worries about the radiation from it. Anything with a long half-life is emitting very, very little radiation. Anything with a short half-life isn't going to last long.

You are forgetting concentration. C14 isn't a significant issue because only one in every trillion carbon atoms is C14 - the rest is stable. Meanwhile, high-level nuclear waste is a densely concentrated soup of spicy elements, all neatly packed together to provide a really bad day to anyone stumbling onto it.

If it's densely concentrated, it can be spread out. If it's concentrated enough, it's still a source of usable energy.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#137
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Yes maybe ever couple 100 years you might have to move it, who cares. If your society isn't capable managing nuclear waste then nobody will care anymore anyway.” This isn’t the right way to plan centuries ahead. You can’t just say “well if the dummies can’t do this one more thing we imposed on them, they deserve what they get.” With generational risks we should aim to reduce them now as much as possible and take t…

What, really, is the impact of a compromised nuclear casket in a remote, unpopulated area above ground? What is the impact buried just 100 feet deep in an unpopulated area? Someone would have to excavate the uranium and either spend loads of time around it or move it to a populated area. Water contamination from naturally occurring uranium is a bigger risk than nuclear waste (uranium, like lead, can cause heavy metal…

Yea, isn't coal ash way worst regardless of how "green" they capture the emissions. They always seem to leek into other water sources and do way more.

How did we get this way?

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#138
The US once had a similar plan. In addition to Yucca Mountain, there was to be an east coast depository, somewhere in a hard-rock mountain. Vermont was suggested.

There are many hard rock mountains in the world where the geology hasn't done much in millions of years. This really isn't that hard to do.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just a bad take. There is almost unimaginable amount Thorium and Uranium on the planet. We will never run out. In reality, volcanic activity keeps transporting thorium up, so it borderline renewable. We have energy for 100s or 1000s of years with nuclear, even used inefficiently. Sure it fucking sucks we are only mostly U-235 and we are doing it inefficiently, but stopping progress because of that is just dum…

> We have energy for 100s or 1000s of years with nuclear, even used inefficiently Doesn't sound like a lot to me. I believe there must be something like Parkinson's law for energy (work expands to fill the allotted time) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law

Asteroid mining and new sources of energy could be developed in that time though.

Re: Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years

#140

I just don't like this, a huge amount of money spent for nothing. This fuel can be managed just fine above ground. Yes maybe ever couple 100 years you might have to move it, who cares. If your society isn't capable managing nuclear waste then nobody will care anymore anyway. Also, this is not 'waste' there are interesting and unique materials there that might be relevant in the next 100+ years. Not to mention that th…

> I just don't like this, a huge amount of money spent for nothing. This fuel can be managed just fine above ground. Yes maybe ever couple 100 years you might have to move it, who cares. If your society isn't capable managing nuclear waste then nobody will care anymore anyway. I love this sentiment. “Yeah nuclear mismanagement could be society-ending if done poorly, but avoiding it costs money !”

Yes, finally the politicians do something properly and immediately they get criticised for spending money.. on long term, sustainable solutions that will help generations to come.
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