At one point, tech companies should wonder if it is worth serving this market. With all these useless regulations, no wonder there’s no innovation in EU anymore.
European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
381–390 of 622 posts
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#382It matters little that on many devices battery is always engaged, even if device is plugged into a wall. My Dell's laptop battery died even though I probably used the laptop disconnected from external power source for less than 10 hours over its lifetime (two years).
Interestingly, I had to physically remove the battery to be able to use it again when plugged into a wall, it wouldn't even turn on with a dead battery, even if connected to power source.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#383The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…
IMHO releasing full hardware documentation is far better.
Incidentally, a lot of cheap Chinese phones based on Mediatek have plenty of leaked documentation available, and a thriving aftermarket community as a result of that.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#384The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…
Is this really [0] the most [1] important issue [2] that the EU should be focusing [3] on? Going by HN traffic, it appears that what the EU is for is to redesign the iPhone to get the details right that techies disagree with Applle on. We live in extreme times with some remarkable challenges - the EU is wasting bandwidth on this triviality. And it isn't a phone manufacturer, it is probably not going to make phones ch…
>Please EU, behave rationally
that'd take actual work from the EU.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#385The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…
Is this really [0] the most [1] important issue [2] that the EU should be focusing [3] on? Going by HN traffic, it appears that what the EU is for is to redesign the iPhone to get the details right that techies disagree with Applle on. We live in extreme times with some remarkable challenges - the EU is wasting bandwidth on this triviality. And it isn't a phone manufacturer, it is probably not going to make phones ch…
What a bunch of nonsense and whataboutism.
Mobile phones are very important for European citizens: there's so much stuff that depends on them... companies require their employees to use them for 2FA, governments use them for logging into various government services, it's the preferred method of interfacing with banks, supermarkets, post office... my son's school has a phone app, which is the only way they communicate school schedule, or stuff like teacher's absence, going on field trips etc.
Apple is just another empire of evil that needs to be regulated in order not to treat its customers like slaves. It's absolutely not a waste of time to make them play nice or gtfo.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#386The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…
No, it's batteries too. And water/dust/fluid ingress protection. Modern phones are sealed up pretty tight because users want them to be waterproof. This makes it very difficult to build in replaceable batteries!
What a bunch of crock.
I have this new Nokia phone with a replaceable battery. It came with the pin you can use to open it (probably costs a few cents to manufacture, but if I had plenty of time to spare, I could've made one with a sturdy piece of plastic and sandpaper). The "mechanism" that keeps the back panel is just a piece of rubber, probably the same kind you find on hermetically sealing food containers.
Also, very few people want their phones water-proof (what for?). And even if you really, really wanted that, you could like spend 5-10 Euro on a water-proof case.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#387Pretty sure I read somewhere that small devices like phones and tablets are exempted. Thanks for nothing.
do you have a source for this?
This was my source (in German): https://www.heise.de/news/Akkus-von-Smartphones-und-Tablets-...
The new law seems to exempt some devices by article 11. But I now think the article might just be dated or wrong.
Here's the passage translated by DeepL:
> However, Article 11 explicitly leaves room for more specific rules that ensure a "higher level of environmental and health protection." For smartphones and tablets, the Commission and member states already adopted so-called ecodesign rules in November that give manufacturers a choice: Either they design their smartphones and tablets so that users can replace the battery. Or they install the battery permanently, in which case it must still have at least 83 percent of its capacity after 500 charging cycles and at least 80 percent after 1,000 charging cycles. Smartphones must then also be dustproof and waterproof.
> From the EU Commission's point of view, these special ecodesign rules for smartphones and tablets guarantee a higher level of environmental protection and health protection than the Battery Ordinance. This applies "in particular due to the durability requirements," the Commission informed c't in response to an inquiry. Therefore, the ecodesign rules are applicable, it said. These come into force after a transition period of 21 months and thus earlier than the Battery Ordinance.
From my limited reading, article 11 only applies to devices that are built to be used in wet environments though.
The original proposal: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
Quote Article 11:
> 2. The obligations set out in paragraph 1 shall not apply where
> ...
> (b) the functioning of the battery is only possible when the battery is integrated into the structure of the appliance.
A smart lawyer could probably argue that a phone can not properly function when exposed to the elements without being integrated into the structure. But I don't know.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#388I love the EU's focus on consumer protections and I'm all for progressive policies on environmental issues, but this and the USB-C issue strike me as misguided, policies from people who aren't qualified to to make the decisions they are making, and aren't listening to experts. I'm glad we're getting USB-C on the iPhone, but it wasn't a huge problem and it was probably coming anyway in the next few years. But replacea…
Battery is the only part of the phone that is guaranteed to fail with normal use, and making the battery hard to replace is a huge pain for end users (and in turn, to their wallets and the environment). Just pulling off the back plate and using your fingernail to replace the battery has turned to having to heat the screen, insert a wedge under the glass, but not deeper than X mm, scrub away the glue, without beaking the screen, unscewing a zillion screws, removing the mainboard, just to reach the battery, then unglueing the battery and the nfc antennas, inserting a new battery, which is sometimes impossible to buy from an OEM, assembling all together, reapplying glue, sticking it all together and hoping it won't fall apart in the pocket... or paying >100eur for a battery replacement, which is sometimes more than half the price of a new phone.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the policies are pretty well informed. I do think USB-C was a huge problem, and I don't think it was coming in a few years. I'm not skeptical of replaceable batteries. I think the policy that forces them to be removable on top of working with 3rd party manufacturers is a good idea. I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. Edit: You can continue…
Parent commenter, and sure it was opinion, but based in good reasoning. USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was. The rumours are that Apple's USB-C implementation will be locked down in similar ways, accessory manufacturers will still need to pay Apple to create certified accessories, and data transfer speeds are going to be restricted to Lightning speeds. USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because…
> USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was
I'm an Android user, but nearly everyone I know has an iPhone. And not even one of them has an iPhone accessory. So how important is this MFi thing, really? From my perspective, the main annoyance is that my partner (who has an iPhone) needs a special charging cable, and can't use the cables I use for my phone and we both use for our laptops.
And I suspect that's mainly what the EU cared about too: charging cables.
> USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff
If you're talking about all their current stuff being Lightning, then that problem will work its way out in a few years. If their current stuff is all micro-USB or USB-A, then... what? How is that even possible these days? Even the cheap rechargeable motorized cat toys I've bought on Amazon use USB-C cables to charge.
And if it is micro-USB or USB-A that their other devices use, so what? They'd just be going from one charging cable that only works with iPhones (Lightning) to another that only works with iPhones (USB-C). And as their other non-USB-C devices wear out or become obsolete, and they replace them with new ones that charge using USB-C cables, this problem will also sort itself over time.
Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
Watch makers solved this problem decades ago - there are very reasonable mechanical solutions to waterproofing. And if some limited components need to be sealed (i.e. the USB port requires special shielding) that sealing can easily exist in a device that is otherwise reasonable to maintain. Watch maintenance has been done by skilled professionals using generic tools and (generally) generic components. Waterproofing i…
Do most watches have ports that are designed for thousands of uses? My smart watch sure does. But of all the possible avenues by which its waterproofness might fail, that connector is #1. I'm pretty sure its custom, as the cable has actual pogo pins to connect. Strictly from a product design and especially hardware design standpoint, I get the resistance to easy replacement of certain parts. Designing for a replaceab…
These phones have been made before at scale, I'm sure we could manage: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5-6033.php
> What is the point of replacing a battery when the charging port, headphone jack, physical buttons, touch screen, etc are spec'd to fail well before the average battery does
Parts often/usually last far in excess of what they're spec'd for as I'm sure you know. And many of the things you list aren't critical to operation like the battery is.