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European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

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Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#301

Post by anigbrowl »

dang wrote: post #294
anigbrowl wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside of this is that discussions are more likely to end up as purely reactive toward change that has already occurred, and disgruntlement among the losers over what feels like a fait accompli can poison discourse. Discussion of legislative issues prior to passage leaves open the possibility of organizing/lobbying for or against a given proposal, should an informed consensus emerge among those discussing the i…

That's true. It's not a great trade-off. The problem is the tons of low-quality "bill proposal" articles that attract attention even though they tend never to amount to anything.

Very true, given the frequency of performative legislation that it meant to satiate the political appetites of constituents rather than effect real change. On the whole HN seems to do a good job of distinguishing serious from frivolous proposals, though.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#302

Post by officialchicken »

dang wrote: post #260
officialchicken wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the rule can not be enacted since it has not been fully adopted - the final (multilingual) text has to be added to the European Council Rules via the plenary voting procedure. This rule will come into effect following that vote.

Thanks - I appreciate the help. Do you know if the final vote is just a formality or if there is a real chance it won't pass? Most proposed bills / votes don't end up resulting in much so we tend to downweight those threads on HN and wait for the thing to actually happen ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ).

It's the least I can do to help dang!

Mostly a formality IMO. Here's where it can get fairly political even though it's nearly a final (published) rule ... this vote was fairly heavily in-favor, only 20 against IIRC and even fewer abstentions. Some last-minute horse trading can definitely occur and bind it up. My personal opinion is that I think that's almost certain to pass at this point (given the nature of manufacturing in the EU versus say borders or food products) and I definitely would be sourcing screw and battery connector suppliers now if I designed phones.

Progress (in English) can be tracked here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237...

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#303

Post by colordrops »

deelowe wrote: post #120
surgical_fire wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please, EU: bring a law that forces manufacturers to release their drivers / firmware whenever they stop updating a digital device. I wish I could upvote this more. It's a crime how I had to throw away in the past perfectly usable devices because they were forced into obsolescence.

I don't see how this would work given modern supply chains. It can be extremely difficult to track down all of the owners of a particular IP and when you do, many of them may not even exist any longer making it near impossible to get any sort of permission to do something like this.

This could grandfather existing phones. Future phones would need to trace providence of IP and get requisite permissions.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#304

Post by timeon »

snuxoll wrote: post #178
chongli wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's batteries too. And water/dust/fluid ingress protection. Modern phones are sealed up pretty tight because users want them to be waterproof. This makes it very difficult to build in replaceable batteries!

My GoPro's are waterproof yet they have removable batteries. It's not impossible, but it does mean they have to be every so slightly thicker.

> so slightly thicker.

Maybe if they decrease size of display, it wouldn't be that bulky. And we would finally get a phone again that is not wannabe tablet.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#305

Post by beefield »

burntwater wrote: post #134
deelowe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this would work given modern supply chains. It can be extremely difficult to track down all of the owners of a particular IP and when you do, many of them may not even exist any longer making it near impossible to get any sort of permission to do something like this.

If the owners/companies no longer exist, then I would think the IP should be free by default. Perhaps that's another law to work on...

> If the owners/companies no longer exist, then I would think the IP should be free by default. Perhaps that's another law to work on...

I think I have even more elegant solution. All IP should be subject to a tax (or maintenance fee or whatever you want to call it). As soon as the IP owner fails to pay the tax, IP falls to public domain irrevocably. The actual structure of the tax can be subject to debate. I would propose a highly progressive tax over time, for example for patents something like $100 for the first year, then doubling every year.

Seriously, why should IP not be taxed? We tax almost everything else that is possible to tax. Especially given it is far from certain that IP is net benefit for society. (I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt though, that's why I am not proposing to abolish IP completely)

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#306

Post by dmix »

notRobot wrote: post #104
nickff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. " Compelling the use of USB-C will cause stagnation in connector innovation; there's no point in trying to to create new and more durable/water-proof/wear-resistant/faster connectors. The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations; if we imagine that there'd been similar…

There's no reason why devices can't have such a newer, better port alongside type-c. Until the new port gains traction the presence of type-c will help with compatibility, and presumably once this hypothetical connector has been proven better than type-c the regulation will simply be updated to mandate that instead.

How can it exist along side USB-C? You mean two ports or a converter or something?

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#307

Post by moffkalast »

xenadu02 wrote: post #165
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But really waterproofing the phone doesn't require gluing everything together to within an inch of its life, just a gasket and a few screws. Yes it will add $5 or something to the cost of a phone, totally worth it, and will improve repairability in general to boot.

You make this claim but have you ever worked in product design for something trying to achieve an IP water and dust ingress rating? It is far more than "just a gasket and a few screws". The rating can't just be good on unboxing day. You want it to hold even after a few years, several drops on the floor, in cold weather, etc.

the easiest way is to just separately encapsulate all parts that need to be removable (i.e. the battery + wireless charging coil in one piece and the rest of the phone in the other), and only have the connectors as the exposed pieces. A gasket around those and contacts far enough away from each other for good measure and you're good to go.

Plus the Samsung Active line never needed to go to these extremes to churn out perfectly fine waterproof phones at slightly higher than average prices. And they weren't the only ones with these sort of offerings.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#308

Post by timeon »

chongli wrote: post #56
unglaublich wrote: post #7

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…

No, it's batteries too. And water/dust/fluid ingress protection. Modern phones are sealed up pretty tight because users want them to be waterproof. This makes it very difficult to build in replaceable batteries!

> users want them to be waterproof

They also want displays not to crack. That is why lot of them are buying protective cases.

Are not sealed up phones overrate in this context?

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#309

Post by RobotToaster »

kmeisthax wrote: post #299
RobotToaster wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, if a company that owns intellectual property is dissolved, it becomes bona vacantia, and is officially property of the King. There's an entire government department dedicated to selling this property.

Wait, are you telling me that the UK actually has a halfway-decent solution to the orphan works problem!?

The process is a little arcane, but it's documented here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/buy-intellectual-property-bvc8

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#310

Post by dmix »

JohnFen wrote: post #193
nickff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. " Compelling the use of USB-C will cause stagnation in connector innovation; there's no point in trying to to create new and more durable/water-proof/wear-resistant/faster connectors. The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations; if we imagine that there'd been similar…

> The requirements for replaceable batteries may cause stagnation in other innovations What conceivable stagnation could requiring replaceable batteries cause?

History is littered with examples of policy creating unintended consequences causing more harm than good. Or at least negating the early good it created over time. It’s usually fine at the start until cracks start to show and policies are often a one way street, that only get reformed many years after the problems become apparent, if at all.
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