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European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

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Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#281
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the EU RF, product liability and cyber security regulations rather point into a direction that disallows use of aftermarket firmware that can delay onsolecense and encourages lockdown. Instead of overregulation we need create an economic system that encourages sustainable use of resources. The EU just does what they can do best: regulate

> we need create an economic system that encourages sustainable use of resources Which would require regulation, or you have way too much faith in humanity. Regulation isn't bad, just dumb regulations.

Totally agreed but good regulation needs a vision and common values beyond a common single market (alas we just do more regulations centrally in the fear to get regulatory fragmentation decentrally)

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#282
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make this claim but have you ever worked in product design for something trying to achieve an IP water and dust ingress rating? It is far more than "just a gasket and a few screws". The rating can't just be good on unboxing day. You want it to hold even after a few years, several drops on the floor, in cold weather, etc.

Watch makers solved this problem decades ago - there are very reasonable mechanical solutions to waterproofing. And if some limited components need to be sealed (i.e. the USB port requires special shielding) that sealing can easily exist in a device that is otherwise reasonable to maintain. Watch maintenance has been done by skilled professionals using generic tools and (generally) generic components. Waterproofing i…

Do most watches have ports that are designed for thousands of uses? My smart watch sure does. But of all the possible avenues by which its waterproofness might fail, that connector is #1. I'm pretty sure its custom, as the cable has actual pogo pins to connect.

Strictly from a product design and especially hardware design standpoint, I get the resistance to easy replacement of certain parts. Designing for a replaceable battery means designing your seal to withstand at least twice as many battery replacements as the law requires, or you make sure you have enough replacement seals stockpiled to cover the number that will be replaced, or you use a a commodity seal (think an O-ring).

Apple eventually made ~86 million iPhone 8 and 8 plus. Let's say that's representative of any given model of phone. How many millions (billions?) of seals is that? How much does that cost to store? To distribute? How much does that affect the cost of the phone?

I am fully behind right-to-repair. I won't work for companies that have lobbied against it (and as an embedded hardware and firmware guy, that's significant). But there is a measurable, monetary cost to designing things to be repaired. Either we accept that only the richest n% of e.g. phone manufacturers can afford to stay in business, we as the consumer accept lower performance at the same price point, or both.

All of that said, my point regarding connectors with finite cycle lifespans is relevant. These physical devices themselves have a lifespan. What is the point of replacing a battery when the charging port, headphone jack, physical buttons, touch screen, etc are spec'd to fail well before the average battery does? What about if you have the same iPhone 8 soldering problem, where the phone can't actually survive being put in the back pocket of a decently tight pair of pants? How does government regulation regarding batteries reverse the trend of people buying cheap things because they cost less?

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. These ultra thin foldable phones probably couldn’t exist with removable batteries. The thinness required to make it comfortable to use would be hard and so would the structural integrity with a removable backplate. It would absolutely restrict durability since it’d make waterproof and dustproofing way more cha…

As long as we are sharing random opinions - my Samsung s2 and s5 were smaller thinner lighter than modern phones, with 3.5mm and replaceable battery and microsd card. And also had gps and wifi and phone. And were ip67 rated. Modern phones are going for sexy, that's all. They are large in every dimension but Impractically thin even though everybody adds another 3mm - 6mm of case anyway because they're sleek to the poi…

I agree with you. But also, to be fair, I'm pretty sure in that time phone bodies have transitioned from mostly plastic to mostly metal? I'm sure that has something to do with the weight, and I would guess that the metal shell is probably thicker too?

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#284

I love the EU's focus on consumer protections and I'm all for progressive policies on environmental issues, but this and the USB-C issue strike me as misguided, policies from people who aren't qualified to to make the decisions they are making, and aren't listening to experts. I'm glad we're getting USB-C on the iPhone, but it wasn't a huge problem and it was probably coming anyway in the next few years. But replacea…

I think the policies are pretty well informed. I do think USB-C was a huge problem, and I don't think it was coming in a few years. I'm not skeptical of replaceable batteries. I think the policy that forces them to be removable on top of working with 3rd party manufacturers is a good idea. I don't think replaceable batteries or USB-C requirements restrict the industries ability to move forward. Edit: You can continue…

Parent commenter, and sure it was opinion, but based in good reasoning.

USB-C wasn't the problem, MFi was. The rumours are that Apple's USB-C implementation will be locked down in similar ways, accessory manufacturers will still need to pay Apple to create certified accessories, and data transfer speeds are going to be restricted to Lightning speeds. USB-C everything is nice, but no non-techies I know like it because it's the new cable that's not compatible with any of their stuff (as much as I advocate for it).

Removable batteries in smartphones just aren't workable. We have too high expectations for battery life, weight, durability, water resistance, and size. It negatively impacts all of these. There hasn't been a mass market smartphone with a replaceable battery in a long time, and if they were that great for customers there would have been. A much better option would be to focus on repairability, it would have almost all the benefits, and effectively none of the downsides.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#285
post #143

Just broadly, let me just echo my full throated support for regulation in this space. Forget the vast majority of the goofy "innovation" arguments I hear, the fact that 3 family cell phones, 2 laptops, Steam Deck, Nintendo Switch, and Oculus can all use the same charger makes insanely more sense that what we were doing before.

Single charger is lovely: nowadays whenever I travel I carry a single charger; it charges: my laptop, my work laptop, my phone, my noise cancelling headphones, my wireless iems, my book, my watch.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#286
post #9

I wonder what is the definition of easily removable and replaceable. Does popping a few screws and using a specialized tool qualifies as easy? What about re-sealing the device after to keep the waterproof rating?

The samsung galaxy s5[0] had a easily replaceable battery while keeping its waterproof rating --- 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S5

"By the end of 2014, it was reported that sales of the S5 were 40% down on the previous S4 model, prompting management changes at Samsung".

This was the last user replaceable battery mainline Galaxy phone. This was also the same generation of the iPhone 6, which was dramatically thinner than the S5 and it's replaceable battery. The market spoke.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#288
post #143

Just broadly, let me just echo my full throated support for regulation in this space. Forget the vast majority of the goofy "innovation" arguments I hear, the fact that 3 family cell phones, 2 laptops, Steam Deck, Nintendo Switch, and Oculus can all use the same charger makes insanely more sense that what we were doing before.

In some ways (convenience). I think it will also lead to not supplying the device with a charging / data transfer cable to reduce e-waste.

Lighting connector is actually better than USB-C for a phone charger, there is no little contact to snap off inside a lighting port and it’s easy to clean pocket lint out of the lighting port with a tooth pick.

This isn’t the case with USB-C, it’s more fragile and harder to remove debris with damaging it which is why I think apple use it for iPad but not iPhone.

The battery thing is good though, I have seen way too many people using devices with swollen batteries because they are way beyond their useful lifetime.

I don’t know this for sure but I would hope the software on the phone can prevent this on modern devices.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, really? I use my cell phone in the rain, I use my cell phone in the shower. I drop it in the mud and rinse it off in the sink. Waterproof is a top-tier feature, right up there with "not exploding the screen into a thousand shards when I drop it".

Well, when I shower I shower, I'm not distracted by a phone, and few drops of water under the rain have never done anything to any of my phones. Might be a top-tier feature for you, but it never made any difference to me.

It probably has measurable impacts at manufacturers’ scale in repairs. Even if you didn’t consciously shower with a phone, it could rain which to a phone is same as owner taking it to a shower.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#290

I think the big question is how "easily" replaceable are the batteries. I doubt were going back to external, swappable batteries since those add extra bulk. And that isn't needed since batteries are much better and power banks and chargers are everywhere. What is needed is a way to easily replace the battery when it gets old. Now, need to take it to repair shop or take chances with DIY. It sounds like proposal includ…

> I'm worried cause I broke a previous phone doing the same repair. Just let them ban glue in phones and they're done.

iPhone 14 (non pro) has done this. Leaks indicate it's coming to the 15 Pro, too. Two screws and a plunger can pop off the screen and back battery assembly. https://www.ifixit.com/News/64865/iphone-14-teardown
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