Live data from Hacker News

Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

theverge.com

581–585 of 585 posts

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#581

They buried the lede. The article suggests the shutdown was because of free API to paid API. Anyone uninformed who just click off at that point. Even when they ask about costs, it was just saying it’s “ But the issue is two fold. (1) all the devs support a paid API, but the rate is absurd according to basic math. It would charge devs over 20x what a user actually cost/were worth. Devs were willing to take on a higher…

Basic math? Let's do the math... Let's say Apollo, Relay, or RIF charged $2/mo per user. Would that be enough to cover their expenses? Looking at Reddit's now API pricing, 100 calls per day per average user would cost $0.72 / month. Google/Apple App Stores take a 15% commission on subscriptions so a total per month per customer average cost would be $0.83 cents. That means the devs would make $0.98 cents per month pe…

50% conversion is laughably high. The number of people in that Relay thread saying they wouldn't pay for the app was unsurprising to me. Not to mention that 3rd party apps would still not have access to NSFW content. I'd be surprised if the conversion rate was as high as 10%. The estimate I saw for current subscribers ($1/month) to Apollo was 50k which is a little over 3% of users.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#582
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic math? Let's do the math... Let's say Apollo, Relay, or RIF charged $2/mo per user. Would that be enough to cover their expenses? Looking at Reddit's now API pricing, 100 calls per day per average user would cost $0.72 / month. Google/Apple App Stores take a 15% commission on subscriptions so a total per month per customer average cost would be $0.83 cents. That means the devs would make $0.98 cents per month pe…

50% conversion is laughably high. The number of people in that Relay thread saying they wouldn't pay for the app was unsurprising to me. Not to mention that 3rd party apps would still not have access to NSFW content. I'd be surprised if the conversion rate was as high as 10%. The estimate I saw for current subscribers ($1/month) to Apollo was 50k which is a little over 3% of users.

Even if it was 10% he's still printing cash for a lifestyle business.

That 1% is an optional $1.49/mo. If it's a mandatory $2.99/mo you're looking at 10-20% easy. And he's printing cash.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#583
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50% conversion is laughably high. The number of people in that Relay thread saying they wouldn't pay for the app was unsurprising to me. Not to mention that 3rd party apps would still not have access to NSFW content. I'd be surprised if the conversion rate was as high as 10%. The estimate I saw for current subscribers ($1/month) to Apollo was 50k which is a little over 3% of users.

Even if it was 10% he's still printing cash for a lifestyle business. That 1% is an optional $1.49/mo. If it's a mandatory $2.99/mo you're looking at 10-20% easy. And he's printing cash.

Still way too high. Also, the actual figure I saw from the Apollo dev (different from the Relay dev's numbers) was 345 API calls per day per user, which changes your math significantly.

The other issue was that 30 days notice is not even close to enough time to pivot in terms of business model. He mentioned he has significant operating costs already, due to paying for caching servers as well as part-time help. Not only does he already have to refund users who paid for year-long subscriptions, but he'd also have to turn around and ask them for almost double the money for the same service.

The fact that he's shuttering his business entirely (thus foregoing all potential profit) rather than "printing money" as you put it, makes me think he has a good reason to think his financial situation is a lot more untenable than your rough analysis would indicate.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#584
post #318
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the plan was always to kill the 3rd party apps, but not until their own app was feature competitive with the 3rd party ones. But they ran into time limitations. They plan to IPO later this year and they want the 3rd party apps to be dead before then.

I can't see that. If a 1.5 person app (Apollo) is handily beating Reddit's app... what on earth is the holdup? Either the eng team is wildly incompetent, or this is by executive choice. Reddit's inability to deliver on mod tools despite a decade's worth of promises makes me think it's 40/60 wildly incompetent and needing firing vs exec choice.

I know several developers, myself included, who are significantly more productive in their personal projects than in their main jobs. This discrepancy can be attributed largely to unnecessary bureaucracy. I have a lot of examples to illustrate this point. In one instance, we found ourselves in a meeting with nearly 30 people, spending close to an hour discussing how long it would take to implement a particular topic. In a typical project, this implementation would have been completed within half a day, employing TDD and incorporating feedback cycles, no shortcuts or hasty work. However, due to the need to navigate through a chaotic development process, involving for examples over 20 microservices managed by a three-person team, this task is projected to span multiple two-week sprints.

Another example: Over a year ago, I decided to explore programming with Python. At work, we encountered the problem of our web-based software requiring users to download PDFs to read them. As a personal project, I set out to build a Python application that would generate individual image files for each page of the PDFs, providing both a preview image and a higher resolution version. I dedicated a few evenings and two Saturdays to the project, and after approximately two weeks, it was successfully completed. Additionally, I created a simple GUI using Vue.js, enabling file uploads and displaying the resulting images. An experienced Python developer could likely achieve the same task in just one or two hours, with an additional two hours for the frontend.

Months later, the company decided to embark on a similar project but with additional extended OCR (Optical Character Recognition), incorporating machine learning to extract structured data from the PDFs. Initially, the prototype aimed solely at uploading the PDFs, with the machine learning aspects simulated. Months were spent discussing, conceptualizing, refining, and revising before the implementation phase commenced. Over a year later (though I have since left the company, I remain in contact with current employees), the first prototype was completed. Users can upload PDFs, and the system generates images from individual pages. The frontend simulates a progress bar, as the microservices run in the background without a built-in monitoring system. One of the more experienced developers foresaw this issue from the start, but management hindered his efforts until he eventually resigned. To date, the machine learning component remains unimplemented.

My last example for now: I recall a situation where the best developer I know was hired by a large corporation as external support. Within a few weeks, he was assigned an easy standard task that any competent developer could handle with ease. Believing it to be a sample project for the standard onboarding process, he promptly and efficiently completed it in less than a week. When he delivered the finished result, his clients were astonished. They had planned this to be his sole project for the next six months and had expected it to take a significant amount of time.

In summary, it is not uncommon for companies to invest months of work and millions of dollars into projects that a reasonably skilled developer could accomplish in a day. Never underestimate the incompetence of some organizations.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#585
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but without those moderators there's not much of a site. I don't spent a lot of time thinking about trash collection, but if all the garbage on my street stopped being collected I'd absolutely notice.

So, wouldn't the proper protest be to instead...just quit? Let the subreddits get overrun by all of this spam and extreme posts and then the admins would appreciate their influence, no? And, as a nice side benefit, maybe we'll finally get to prune the cabal of super-moderators that have been abusing their influence for over a decade now.

Look at the AskHistorians community. Those mods LOVE their community. They would be walking away from a passion project.

These aren't just cheeto junkie computer nerds, these people are invested. So this is a little like saying "just leave your girlfriend of 5 years" like a lot of emotion is involved. You want it to work. You want to be in the ideal state. You don't want to quit. You want them to change.

Post reply on HN