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Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

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Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During this whole debacle, there's been quite a few posts across various parts of the internet that register to me as astroturfing, including a handful on HN. It's not about the opinions presented, nothing wrong with dissent, but the way these posts express those opinions just feels wrong somehow — I've seen 20 years worth of impassioned people posting on the internet, and these posts come off as poor imitations of t…

I agree. The posts here on HN about how all the mods are terrible human beings... that just read as an oddity.

Nah those are real. People with a big "I dropped an r-bomb on a leftist sub and the powertripping mods banned me" energy.

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#312
On the one hand, if a subreddit is supposed to be a community it doesn't make sense for there to be a class of user, a "mod", of a multi-thousand user community that can't be dislodged even if literally every other member of that community wants them to be. That is clearly a highly artificial structure imposed on a community by rigid computer code.

Let me acknowledge the obviously self-serving nature of this declaration, wrapped up in Truth, Justice and the American Way at a highly convenient time for Reddit, and dismiss it for the remainder of my post here, because I find social network game theory interesting as a hobby and want to discuss the mechanics and implications of having dislodgeable moderators.

The problem I see is that there is no way to build this structure that isn't gameable in a world where everyone uses free emails and has ever-increasing access to an army of LLM and other sorts of bots. You can't build a system where a single person with a bee in their bonnet about some mod can simply marshal an army of bots to get them dislodged. The entire thing about moderation is that it produces a stream of people with bees in their bonnet, and the people who tend to get moderated are disproportionally those people. The bigger the sub, the larger the stream of such people. The nice guy who can't be bothered to start a vendetta probably wasn't a problem poster in the first place.

You can't just "vote" them out by handing everyone in the world a vote. You can't hand a vote to everyone subscribed in the community. You could set a cutoff date but that is weird too. You could give participation points (voting, commenting) but those are easy to game too.

There really isn't a way to define a "community" in a way that code can get a hold of it. Which means that in the end this is just going to be Reddit imposing its central views by fiat. That is not intrinsically morally wrong. The problem is that it's not Reddit today. I expect Reddit is calculating the result of its moves with a simple multiplication of how much money they expect to make on the same community, but if they manage to contract it significantly in the process the calculations won't hold. Moreover, even if they do lever open every single community tomorrow, the damage won't be visible tomorrow. It'll be slowly over the course of the next year or two. There won't be a day where anyone external will be able to point at and say "Look, this proves we were right!". There won't be a day when I'd be able to counter a "Citation?" with objective proof. Reddit will just... fade. One interaction at a time.

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#313

Honestly, if mods can just be voted out by their community, it will be chaos and little noisy groups of people will ruin everything. I am thinking this is not so much a well thought out and reasoned opinion after weighing up historical behaviour on the platform, but a whiplash to a protest actually having effect. Just maybe...

At least all those bot farms would have something else to do with their time.

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of us think that the blackouts are starting to look a lot like a tantrum that doesn't represent the best interests of the community. I've yet to seen a single coherent argument that supports this statement. Please enlighten me.

I use Reddit to talk about local stuff, ultralight gear. The larger world of mods and “power users” and whatnot - not super relevant. I understand how ya’ll feel, but is blocking people from using r/tempe really useful? “I’m gonna make Reddit completely unusable so Reddit doesn’t become shitty”

In a couple weeks, the main way many people use Reddit is going to literally be blocked forever. The alternatives are not palatable to many, so the users are basically being unilaterally banished from Reddit. And that's just the opening salvo to monetize reddit.

Give it another year, and your little sub will have 3 ad posts per "actual" post and modded by the Tempe Chamber of Commerce.

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#315
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, I, for one, don't fucking care about third party apps (which make money mind you) Those third party apps are central to how the entire content works, they're absolutely critical for the moderators that try valiantly to diver the tide of pure excrement of content that floods in to the various subreddits. That content you want to be able to see would be buried and gone, or never put there in the first place if…

> Those third party apps are central to how the entire content works, they're absolutely critical for the moderators This is simply not true. I moderate several subs. 3rd party mod tools are not critical. Mods who claim this is so are really misrepresenting the issue. Power tools for mods are nice to have for some. I make use of automod extensively. The tools reddit provides are adequate to perform moderation tasks.…

Any sub that ever hits the front page will need 3rd party tools.

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#316
post #69

Well, that's accurate and indeed a major problem. Subreddit moderators, like unfortunately usually moderators everywhere, can act arbitrarily and there is no way for users to remove or punish moderators. So this means that /r/$FOO is not actually a subreddit about $FOO, moderated so that exactly any non-spam discussion about $FOO is allowed, but rather a dictatorship ran by whoever happened to grab the name first. So…

> a dictatorship ran by whoever happened to grab the name first.

voting certainly ain't the answer.

that just means that the mod teams backed by the best AI bots will win.

(which probably means spez and reddit itself will just control the mod teams of all the highest traffic subs)

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#317
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To actually answer: Huffman's argument is that mods are like business executives and users are like shareholders, and therefore the users should be able to vote out moderators who are not acting in the users' best interests. He said this while also implying that the blackout was only supported by moderators, not by the regular users, and that this means that Reddit administration is having to step in to save the user…

Which doesn't make sense as instead of voting people out they could just create a new subreddit. Unlike in real life landed gentry works due to limited space. Not so on the internet.

Yeah Huffman's whole argument is disingenuous from the start, which is to be expected from a guy desperately trying to convince people that his platform has profit potential even though just this week he stated that it is not profitable. Uphill battle, y'know?

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#318
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (which has been done for free as a service to Reddit). Most of them are doing it because they get off on having a tiny bit of power. I couldn't care less about the API or the will of capricious mods - I hope Reddit will hand the subs over to other people

And those new mods are suddenly not going to need better modding tools? They'll just be happy with whatever Reddit has? It's just the current mods who get off on their power, the new ones won't? Stop for a second and consider: why do these problems exist, and why should they stop?

You can't change human nature but you can get mods that don't care about this particular issue and when the next ones cause problems you get rid of them too

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of them go waaaay too far. Mass purges of disagreement/dissent have become normal on there, but they're now going after 'prethoughtcrime' - banning anybody who's ever posted to any of a growing list of subreddits deemed 'bad'.

On the surface that seems like a bad idea but get enough users coming in from another sub and "just asking the question" or not arguing in good faith and you'll understand really quick why it's easier to ban them all than play games where they try to stay just barely on this side of the rules while still harassing your community. You also get a lot of the "I'm a gay black guy [0]"-type people which makes modding even…

If you've got to aggressively censor people en-masse for 'just asking questions', maybe you should question the ideas that you're defending, and whether they're really defensible.

At least let downvotes do their thing. Deleting posts and banning users should be reserved for spam, persistent troublemakers, or actually-abusive comments.

Re: Reddit CEO Says Mods Too Powerful, Plans to Weaken After Blackout

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Just a regular user who wasn't particularly inconvenienced by the blackout. Were you seriously inconvenienced by the blackout in some way? I really don't get the overly impassioned 'rise up against the mods' posts I've been seeing.

> Were you seriously inconvenienced by the blackout in some way? You phrased that in the past tense, but I assure you that a number of major subreddits are still private at this moment. With each passing day, my sympathy for the moderators diminishes and I become more receptive to the notion that Reddit should reopen the subreddit, remove all the existing mods, and hold elections for new ones. With a subreddit that h…

This is the desired result. Personally I'd love to see Reddit forcefully remove mods from top subs and have to find replacements.

1) it's a big pain, and probably takes away from their timeline of delivering worsening UX and monitization features

2) the new mods will probably be even bigger power trippers than the old ones.

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