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Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

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141–150 of 184 posts

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#141
From the document:

> The world of Diablo will have a dark, evil tone. Initial levels will be set in an abandoned Gothic church. A marble mausoleum and progressively darker, dingier crypts and catacombs follow.

As someone who has been down in the crypt of an abandoned Victorian Gothic church, I can confirm that they definitely do not look like the level in Diablo does!

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part is it that you're not vibing with? For me personally, I think the story of e.g. Diablo 3 is gash, but it's when you're higher level, get a great gearset and can just whirlwind through levels and zone out where it comes into play. But I get what you mean; I've tried PoE and didn't get very far at all, just lost interest. I've spent a bit more time with Grim Dawn, but that game seems to just drag on, I've tr…

Doesn't this just show the fundamental problem with the genre? In the time it takes to get a high level character with good gear in DIII you could have played another, shorter, game to completion. If you have to play through an entire game's worth of bad content to get to the good bits, why not just play a game that's good from the start?

The good bits are also very short lived. Basically once you get all items you need for a build it's fun for an hour, but from then you only get marginal improvements in grinding to get even better versions of the same items.

For me that's when i get bored and lose interest. The problem with D3 is that you can skip pretty much all the boring prep and just hit max. lvl in minutes and then play a couple hours to get the needed items.

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#143
What's astounding to me is how well the Diablo and Diablo II team took the design decisions that Angband made (and Brevik based Diablo on Angband, not Moria) and were able to fix almost all of them.

It's actually kind of sad, that Brevik effectively stole the basic design of a FOSS game and commercialized it, but the end result is very much a better game for it.

To wit, Angband is supposedly the fortress of Morgoth, but it's an empty mine where the enemies are blobs and ants for any n levels. Diablo fixed this by actually gradating the dungeon as strata rather than the same level type over and over again. They likewise reduced the monster types to thematically fit. In Angband you can still encounter level 1 monsters on the 100th dungeon level

Angband had one set of artifacts (random artifact sets came later). There were and are very few that actually appear before well into mid-game. Diablo I did this, discovered that it was pretty boring and added in rares and sets in Diablo II that were accessible immediately.

Angband decided to have big loot that was dropped by unique monsters, but because the drop rate was too low and the unique list too small, made "vaults" of rooms that are loaded with artifacts. Diablo II just allowed you to grind uniques with decaying drop rates, as well as adding in super monsters and chests.

Angband is 100 levels of sameness. Diablo I cut it down to 16, if I remember correctly, whereas Diablo II took the 100 level formula and broke it up into three difficulties and made it a linear adventure rather than only a descent. And even though you repeat it three times, there's enough time between repetition that it feels fresh.

Diablo II did the exact same thing with base items as well. In Angband, there's a dagger (1d4). From dungeon level 1 to 100, a dagger will only be 1d4. Diablo II gave you three tiers of base items that actually made using them feasible.

In Angband, gold becomes useless because the stuff you can buy in town is pegged to level 1 beginner gear. Diablo I had level scaled gear gambling and Diablo II made tiers of cities with scaled equipment and also included gambling.

In Angband, you can haul around 99 potions of various tiers of healing. In Diablo I/II, you are capped to what can reasonably fit into your inventory, with rapid access limited to belt size.

There are dozens if not hundreds of other decisions that were the right ones to make that Diablo I/II made that Angband didn't that makes Angband look like an archaic dinosaur that deserved to have its lunch eaten.

Now, Angband is still being updated, but instead of making the type of choices that Diablo made, they've been just "streamlining" it and bugfixing. The ID game is almost completely gone, you no longer sell gear in town by default, and the majority of players skip the middle 70 levels of the game.

I recently added in needed quality of life improvements to a fork of Angband like DCSS-style autoexplore and tab-combat (no one seemed to actually try it) but the game needs a drastic overhaul to coopt all the improvements that Diablo I/II made on the town-dungeon-sell-loop game so that the game's player base doesn't die off completely. Currently, the only two *band games with sizable player bases are Sil-Q (a tightly designed "modern" and Tolkien-faithful Angband) and FrogComPosBand (a kitchen-sink variant), but Angband's is all but dead.

Unfortunately, the current maintainer and grognard player base want to keep the design fixed roughly at the norms of 1992 with a cleaner code base. So it goes I guess.

Angband: The game that invented epic loot: http://homebrewhomunculus.blogspot.com/2021/05/the-game-that...

My fork: https://github.com/3m4r/angbandv

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#144
post #104
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The level scaling is a really bizarre design choice. Every game with this feels bad. There is no sense of progression as your character gets punished for levelling up. Some game designers think it’s a great idea though - hence it’s in D4. I’d love to hear their take.

I've come to terms with this. Even though it still feels weird I can see why they did it: since the game is not linear at all (I think you can even do the first 3 acts in any order) compared to other Diablo games (didn't play 3) they kinda need to do this so you don't breeze through zones. It also helps when playing with under/over leveled friends since they just use the same system to prevent you from rushing them.…

Thinking about it more, one cool thing about level scaling is I can play with my friends at whatever level they are. It doesn't really matter for the endgame at all, but when you're leveling up early on it is pretty nice.

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there's a massive trickle-down in terms of what very small teams are able to accomplish now by leveraging modern tools, engines, and art pipelines. It astonishes me to this day that Hollow Knight was basically developed by three people, including all the writing, art, design, and programming— there's definitely more content in that game than what passed for triple-A in the PSX era, maybe even PS2.

It's easy to say "oh this modern indie game was made by only X people!" forgetting that the [open source] stack it was developed on has hundreds if not thousands of contributors. So no, Hollow Knight wasn't developed by three people "including all the programming ". It uses Unity. Unity is worth billions and employs thousands of people, many of them certainly programmers. I agree though that very few people are neede…

we can go that route too when talking about EV batteries production emissions vs ICE but sure we don't because that's not the point, right?

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#146
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is pretty fair to say that Diablo 1 did effectively create the genre as far as the history of gaming is concerned. The commercial and mainstream impact of that game vs anything prior to that is on a different magnitude. A similar comparison is saying that Apple didn't invent touchscreen phones - sure, but the iPhone had such an overwhelming impact that it shook up the entire industry. Relevant phone compar…

> I think it is pretty fair to say that Diablo 1 did effectively create the genre as far as the history of gaming is concerned. Definitely not, there were many successful Japanese ARPGs long before that, like Dragon Slayer, Hydlide, The Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy Adventure, Secret of Mana etc. Diablo may have created its own subgenre.

None of those games are like Diablo…

From the wiki page about ARPGs:

> Diablo's effect on the market was significant, inspiring many imitators. Its impact was such that the term "action RPG" has come to be more commonly used for Diablo-style games, with The Legend of Zelda itself slowly recategorized as an action-adventure.

Zelda-type games were popular before Diablo-type games became the standard for the genre. Ys is an action RPG but I don’t think Ys is the type of game the average person means when they say ARPG.

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#147
It's interesting of course to see such outlandish features as the complex race/sub-class system for character creation (which was replaced with a handful of predefined distinct archetypes) or the turn-based combat system.

But what strikes me most is the sales pitch: it's not intended to simply be another game, it's basically a game generator and players would be expected to buy expansion packs (what we would now call DLCs) which add a handful of things to the generator. The document even compares this to Magic The Gathering.

Considering the actual game only received one (rushed) expansion and that expansion was very different in scope (offering two additional, smaller, dungeons, one new character class (including two unfinished ones left in the source code) and a handful of new features and content) this seems honestly the most surprising to me.

This design document is pretty much built to sell the idea of content pack DLCs a decade ahead of their time. I wonder what finally caused the change of heart.

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#148
post #7

My favourite story of Diablo's development (as relayed by David Brevik in the Diablo Postmortem - see below) is the part where Diablo was made real-time. He passionately championed that it should be more like Rogue or Moria purely turn-based and permadeath. That was until he implemented real-time movement in an afternoon and attacked a skeleton. This was a directive from Blizzard, and it effectively created the ARPG…

While not fully ARPG, it felt like one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemstone_Warrior (1984) - one of my fav games from my childhood

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is pretty fair to say that Diablo 1 did effectively create the genre as far as the history of gaming is concerned. Definitely not, there were many successful Japanese ARPGs long before that, like Dragon Slayer, Hydlide, The Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy Adventure, Secret of Mana etc. Diablo may have created its own subgenre.

None of those games are like Diablo… From the wiki page about ARPGs: > Diablo's effect on the market was significant, inspiring many imitators. Its impact was such that the term "action RPG" has come to be more commonly used for Diablo-style games, with The Legend of Zelda itself slowly recategorized as an action-adventure. Zelda-type games were popular before Diablo-type games became the standard for the genre. Ys i…

Zelda didn't have experience points and levelling (except Zelda II) but there were many other games that were clearly RPGs and that had real time combat. Secret of Mana would be a classical action RPG. I never heard the term being restricted to Diablo.

Re: Diablo Pitch Document (1994) [pdf]

#150
post #69
post #5

An underrated choice of the original diablo is that it would only show you a subset of story quests and boss monsters in a single play-through. A few (like the butcher) would always show up, but for most others there'd be multiple options for which story quest would be in the game. A lot of games since include every quest in every playthrough (or change it based on what choices you make), and games like the Witcher 3…

If you're a completionist you'd have to do multiple play throughs. But honestly, its a bit of a catch-22. No one wants to "roll a bad playthrough" and devs don't want to work on content that only a subset of players will be able to experience.

Anecdotally, "unique custom experiences" like this sound great on paper but fall apart in practice. This is not just true for games but also for other digital media:

I remember reading about various techniques to adapt online trainings to each learner's performance by offering additional exercises and content when certain performance thresholds weren't met and from a technological standpoint this seemed exciting but in practice it meant learners could not be reliably expected to have received the same knowledge (which is bad for any form of compliance) and their results might be difficult if not impossible to compare (which is bad for any form of analytics, not to mention actual conclusions about individual performance).

It's cool and flashy and you can make great demos but when it comes to actual hands-on experience, the drawbacks usually outweigh the benefits, plus you end up creating a lot of content most people don't actually ever get to see.

For games the only counter-example I can think of is cosmetic changes like Zelda TOTK's dialog lines changing to take weather, time of day and sequences of events (e.g. getting a fetch quest for an item you already have in your inventory) into account. But those are fairly cheap to implement, add minimal extra code paths (which is important for QA) and don't change the overall experience.

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