Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

inflecthealth.medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 253 posts

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#241

Post by Spooky23 »

epcoa wrote: post #229
TeMPOraL wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really depends on the situation. I have no doubts a typical doctor could easily ELI5[0] you anything about the procedures or treatments they're administering - once well fed, well rested, and somewhat relaxed. But if you're catching them as they're overworked and asking them to context-switch on the spot, well... I'd expect it work just as well as it would with software engineers. That is, if I was subject to random…

First, it really depends on the speciality and the emphasis on the clinical practice within that specialty. But I'll address "I'd expect it work just as well as it would with software engineers." This is not a great comparison. Orally presenting patients to peers and explanation to non-experts is a core skill of medical training and fundamental to clinical practice. Understanding the essential fundamentals of a handf…

Thanks for this really informed and well thought out reply. I learned a lot.

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#242

Post by potatoman22 »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #66
danmaw wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't a doctor, it's trained on Reddit threads and other random shit off the internet not medical journals.

You should try asking it detailed questions about medicine. It’s fairly deep and broad in its medical “knowledge.” But it’s not good at deductive or inductive reasoning and has no agency, so is entirely unsurprising it’s not good at differential diagnosis. We actually have good differential diagnosis expert systems the challenge is getting the providers to input queries properly. I can imagine GPT4 acting as an inter…

Providers don't input queries "properly" because differential diagnosis software is complicated, clunky, and not easy to use for the overworked clinician.

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#243

Post by noisy_boy »

pcurve wrote: post #118
noisy_boy wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favourite movies; we need more finance movies considering the outsized direct/indirect impact financial industry has on our lives + hits closer to home too.

mine too. Must've watched it a dozen times. Margin Call and The Big Short are fun to watch over and over for some reason.

I have a separate folder called "corporate" on Plex; it has the two you mentioned + Up In The Air.

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#244

Post by licebmi__at__ »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #144
licebmi__at__ wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the first part, mostly because I believe doctor-speak is a skill medical professionals use to deal with patients which in their desperation, think they know more than they do. Yet I fully agree with the second paragraph. The idea of the teleprompter doctor working is so absurd it would be rejected immediately if not because chatgpt hype.

The teleprompter bit makes no sense. Do you feel less confident in your doctor after learning that any kind of serious treatment usually involves a checklist ? Following a script isn't a sign of lacking skills - it's a sign of being wise enough to recognize human limitations. Medical care isn't improv comedy.

I’m not claiming a lack of skill.

I’m calling bullshit on the scenario where a distressed family member which is low key claiming you’re mishandling the patient is suddenly calmed when confronted by a doctor that is reading a script filled with claims of empathy and care.

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#245

Post by kmoser »

kaitai wrote: post #75
kmoser wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My takeaway isn't how useful ChatGPT is, but how useless the doctor is, and by extension, how poorly the the field of medicine is that it doesn't adequately train doctors to have better bedside manner. Regardless of my state of agitation, I would most definitely not want to be read a script prepared by an AI. In fact, were I to find out after the fact, I'd be even more incensed.

I passed this article & discussion on to physician spouse, who would specifically like me to reply to this comment: "You are being very emotional." Digging deeper (as the comment above alone isn't worthy of HN, IMO): "People believe what they want to believe because of small sample sizes. When there isn't a black & white answer people go back to their personal experience, which is limited. They will not be right in t…

> I passed this article & discussion on to physician spouse, who would specifically like me to reply to this comment: "You are being very emotional."

Yes, that's the whole point: I'm relating what my feelings would be in a given circumstance.

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#246

Post by __loam »

firebirdn99 wrote: post #44

This really feels farcical, and kind of like vc bros hyping up a product. Considering this was a serious issue of life and death of a patient, it was surprising how it read like a prank or like the scene from Harold and Kumar, where Kumar plays a fake doctor and saves an ER patient through sheer luck. I know some doctors are full of baloney but c'mon. I really hope maybe that we create better doctors that have a lot…

> are able to wield technology to make themselves 10x better like we're doing with programming

lmfao

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#247

Post by __loam »

licebmi__at__ wrote: post #116
nevi-me wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been embarrassed by a Copilot code snippet that I proofread to seem correct, but was incorrect due to some subtle comparison logic. I can only imagine the risks in professions that aren't dealing with logic that has a very finite list of options or where the answers AI produce require researched effort to validate. It's probably worse in law if you're given a case reference as you're professionally supposed to r…

> I can only imagine the risks in professions that aren't dealing with logic that has a very finite list of options or where the answers AI produce require researched effort to validate This can be done the same way as it’s done in the non ai-assisted process. Mistakes are made then the trained professionals correct the course of action. The problem is with people dealing and selling the problem like it’s a simple lo…

And of course, there's no way to verify the output of an llm without professional experience or training, so what's the point?

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#248

Post by dkarras »

misnome wrote: post #181
dkarras wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Making the text more fluffy will not make it more empathetic, Of course not, but empathy in communication (not in action) is full of fluff. It almost requires it. >Our bullshit receptors are good spotting dishonesty, so it'll just sound cringe All "genuine" affirmation for the sake of empathy sounds cringe to me. I'd rather the doctor devoted their time to doing their job well instead of trying to make someone feel…

> I'd rather the doctor devoted their time to doing their job well instead of trying to make someone feel heard and validated Not doing this can make the job actively harder.

Depending on the situation, can make it actively harder as well. Do I spend the time to verbally fluff up the relative of a patient or go and tend to 5+ other patients that need critical care right now (the example in this article)? If the first one is expected of me, care suffers and the job is harder. I am not dismissing the needs the relative of patient has, don't get me wrong. But in an ER setting it rarely is the priority. If some tech makes it easier to more effectively give that need some additional bandwidth, that is a good thing.

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#249

Post by dkarras »

firebirdn99 wrote: post #236
dkarras wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also draining to be around people that always require feeling heard and validated or else they get crabby. Two sides to everything. The doc in this story probably does not require AI to write something compassionate. He simply does not have the bandwidth to do it while juggling critical patients and their family while they are not taking no for an answer and insisting on inappropriate treatment.

Isn't that why there are nurses, or maybe we need in-between positions of people who actually do the diagnosis, surgery, and those to explain them. Wait, those are nurses?

In a more scheduled hospital / care setting, yes. In ER care setting (the example in the article), it is a lot more chaotic. Disseminating care information to people further down / up the hierarchy takes time that they might not have.

Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients

#250

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

dkarras wrote: post #240
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course not, but empathy in communication (not in action) is full of fluff. It almost requires it. Empathy doesn't require fluff at all. (Think of all the short, poignant messages you've sent or received when someone is upset.) The corporate need to not give ground on a complaint is where all that reassuring, repetitive, empty BS comes from. > All "genuine" affirmation for the sake of empathy sounds cringe to me.…

>(Think of all the short, poignant messages you've sent or received when someone is upset.) If it is short and not fluffy enough, it risks sounding dismissive. Those short messages generally pave way for a deeper conversation about the subject. >Honestly with "for the sake of empathy" it sounds like you really don't place a high value on empathy (which is not unusual, or necessarily wrong). Not really, I think empath…

> I know how to sound empathetic for those that need it.

But that isn't actually empathy, and people can tell the difference.

> Some people need words of affirmations and validation to be lifted.

Not the words. The understanding and sharing that underpins the words.

My point is this: if you think empathy can be faked successfully, you simply aren't the right sort of person to decide whether the results of automated faking with an LLM are valuable to the listener.

Because people can very often tell when empathy is being faked. And when they do discover that empathy is being faked, you are not going to be easily forgiven.

Empathy implicitly involves exposing someone's feelings to the air, as it were, in order to identify that you understand and share them. So faked empathy is variously experienced as insulting, patronising, hurtful, derisive etc.

Using an LLM to create verbose fluffy fake empathy is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

If this isn't something you find easy to understand at a level of feeling, don't fake empathy, especially at volume. Stick to something very simple and an offer of contextually useful help.

> My empathy generally drives me to action and solving problems.

I think this is noble and valuable, and I would in your shoes stick to this. Offers of assistance are a kindness.

But you should never pretend to share someone's feelings if you don't share their feelings. Especially not in volume.

Post reply on HN