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Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

beehaw.org

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Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#61
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First sentence As if being a federated network wasn't enough of a hurdle for new users, now we have instances blocking each other already. If you cant make decisions about the sort of traffic your server receives and choose to defederate for pragmatic reasons then your service is not decentralized in fact. Put another way - if your ideal service is identical to reddit, and each instance is connected to all, then your…

Fragmenting the community is not good for anyone. Having the option to block other instances is important but shouldn't be encouraged. Having the right to divorce your spouse is important. But nobody wants to date someone whose been married 4 times.

Why not? All that practice, they must have gotten pretty good at matrimony.

But more seriously - I don't see how you can remain marri.. federated, when one or more instances operates as a much more popular open relay.

I don't have the words for this, so please interpret charitably and correct candidly, but there is an expectation that each instance performs its own vetting and policing, so everyone can work together as individual fiefs without a central authority, and each piece can be as big or as small as it needs to be to sidestep that 'small unreachable team with enormous surface area' thing that we're doing so much of everywhere else? Yes?

If I have that right then this seems like a perfectly appropriate time to block with a similar emotional tenor as closing a water main to deal with a leak.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#62

Is there simply a lack of intersection between folks who care about UX and those who care about distributed computing? (And haven’t been sucked into web3.)

Genuinely, yes. They aren't naturally overlapping interests for reasons that appear to be both cultural and about the topics themselves.

Which is unfortunate because I think some neat projects flounder for lack of good onboarding.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#63

Is there simply a lack of intersection between folks who care about UX and those who care about distributed computing? (And haven’t been sucked into web3.)

I interpret that as a complaint about the UX, but I have almost the opposite take. The UX has its quirks, certainly, but - as a professional in distributed systems and a veteran of online forums going back to Usenet and even a bit before - I'm actually more concerned about the distributed-system parts. The inconsistency in what you'll see if you try to view a thread, depending on which instance you're looking from, is reflected in the UX but is fundamentally a problem with how Mastodon in particular connects to other instances and processes queues. The O(n^2) communication pattern that the fediverse generally seems to fall into - relays exist but seem very little used and not organized among themselves - is what I think will limit growth well before Twitter or Reddit scale. I don't think the problem is that the people who designed ActivityPub and the fediverse were experts in one area and novices in another. They were (trying to be kind here) still learning across all of the relevant areas. Some of them might be approaching expert level now, and other experts might have joined since the early days, but that only means the work to fix the protocols and implementations of those protocols can begin.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#64
post #48

Why not just use a centralised forum app?

Honestly, I don't think a centralised app is really a good solution in this space. It's going to be big, it's going to be expensive, and as soon as someone tries to pay for it, they're going to end up repeating all the same mistakes.

I actually think a large problem with lemmy is that it's already too centralised. Each instance is trying to be a reddit. Which is all very nice, but it also means each instance is effectively in competition. I think each instance should be trying to be a subreddit.

The way it'd work in my head is that you'd have two types of instance. Front-end instances that are effectively curators/aggregators & identity providers. They effectively get to present you your front page and r/all. And this is entirely "if you don't like their curation choices, pick another". So here you'd get to pick if your instance is tech-focussed, foss-focussed, as-big-as-possible, family-friendly, politically charged, etc.

And honestly, the only thing stopping that instance from being an app that's not much more than an rss feed-reader, is that I've saddled them with being identity providers too. Which is not the world's biggest hurdle.

The second type of instance would be one subreddit. So moderators are instance administrators, you're trying to build one community in one place, etc. You're just trying to build one community in your one niche/topic, - and you're not trying to compete with other instances who are also trying to be everything to everyone.

I think this would present a lot of benefits. Front-end instances would naturally discover subreddits through the subscriptions their members make. For users, discovery would be through cross-posts, and curation amongst the subreddits their home instance already knows, etc. They can choose their own funding model, ad model, membership model, etc. And if they make choices that are wildly unpopular with their members, they can move to an instance with different ideas/ownership/spez without losing their communities in the process.

For subreddits, administrators can control their costs by, eg, choosing only to host text posts instead of images & media. Brand-owners can own their own communities/identities - ubuntu can run r/ubuntu on their own infrastructure with their own moderators, etc. And we should see a lot less pissing patches like the linked post, because subreddits aren't directly leaning on each other. Hell, there'd be nothing stopping youtube exposing their channels as pseudo-instances.

What I'd really love to see is a return to a world where one person can host their niche community on a $5 VPS - and still get all the benefits of being a subreddit. And at the same time, foss communities & company support forums can join right in without it being a huge risk to themselves, etc.

Asking for centralization is asking for another model where we put all our eggs in one basket, and then wonder why that basket has to kowtow to VC to pay for it all. What worries me is that right now, we're very focussed on breaking free from that, and no-one's exploring what we could actually gain from the alternatives.

And while this risks sounding incredibly hand-wavy - it's really just the forums we all grew up on, sharing a common API.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#65

I don't really know how this all works, but can't I (a hypothetical human) just create a user account on each disconnected sub-graph? Why is this significant?

I think this is 'significant' due to a large volume of people who want Lemmy to be their reddit killer and replacer, regardless of the goals of the project itself.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#66
I run my own instance of Mastodon just for myself - and am thinking of doing the same for Lemmy. I, of course, can do that because I have the skills - most don't, so they must rely on sites like these for their accounts.

I've been working on an alternative that is, ultimately, a standalone and lightweight ActivityPub server that handles only one account at a time. The idea would be to serve an account as - in essence - it's own container. If a person just wants to run an instance for themselves off an old laptop in their livingroom (which is how I run my Mastodon instance), they can do that themselves if they have the skills - which I would strive to be minimal.

But, if they needed to rely on someone like beehaw, they could sintead join a "collective" - a central site on one domain that handles all incoming and outgoing messaging, DDOS protection, CDN caching, and even blocklist handling (e.g. reading a user's blocklist and blocking at the outermost layer) then passes what gets through to the individual service running on the backend. A collective could apply a site-wide blocklist, but the users would be able to opt back in because, at the end of the day, they are the ones who are actually federating with these other instances - the collective is, in essence, a firewall or "management layer", akin to an APIM for APIs.

Obviously, I'm not done building this, but I'm going to try and accelerate my work once I get some paid work off my desk. Why wouldn't something like this work? If an account wants to stay connected to a problematic server for whatever their reasons, how would that impact the rest of the collective if federation is handled at the user level?

Or, perhaps a better question, what's wrong with handling federation at the user level? Should I not be able to follow any account or block any account I want? Why must this fall on the backs of the admins?

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#67

I don't really know how this all works, but can't I (a hypothetical human) just create a user account on each disconnected sub-graph? Why is this significant?

Yes, and what's more, you don't need to use a single account to manage an identity and all feeds like you would with a microblogging account, so it's not even a significant source of UX friction. These sorts of applications are tailor made for multiaccount usage, most reddit users even have more than one account to manage different communities.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#68
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making the whole thing useless Why's that? The typical user problem isn't "see all the content", it's "see some good content". As long as the two halves have critical mass, it could well be fine. For example, the fact that Reddit and Twitter were separate networks didn't prevent both of them from growing pretty well.

In the past several years I've noticed a viewpoint gaining popularity, which is that if you can't be the biggest fish in the pond it's not worth bothering with, which is a quite odd to me. You even see it in online games where the majority of players all pile into a single server, then complain about the problems they've brought upon themselves by doing that (lag, instability, etc) instead of inhabiting a few moderat…

It feels closely related to the reluctance to use two different chat applications to talk to two different people. It's not really a big deal, but you still get so much resistance from people. As if their phone is only capable of running a single application. The network effect related control of user groups as a result of this strange pointless idea is so corrosive.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#69

I really just don’t understand the lemmy and mastodon thing. It looks like the same interface even on different servers and can’t you just make an account on another server? It doesn’t really make sense and I don’t see why I should care

With Mastodon and other microblogging software it makes sense, since the primary focus on those media is identity. You create a persona, you create and distribute content.

With Lemmy that's not the case. It's about sharing information and discussing it. So federation is less crucial, but it does add one powerful benefit: the network itself can have network effects and grow to critical mass, leveraging the same benefit Reddit had over disparate forums and the like. It's not a necessity from a user perspective, but it makes it feel like all the information is in one place and so users prefer it anyway.

Re: Lemmy Instances are already blocking each other

#70
post #64
post #48

Why not just use a centralised forum app?

Honestly, I don't think a centralised app is really a good solution in this space. It's going to be big, it's going to be expensive, and as soon as someone tries to pay for it, they're going to end up repeating all the same mistakes. I actually think a large problem with lemmy is that it's already too centralised. Each instance is trying to be a reddit. Which is all very nice, but it also means each instance is effec…

Yup, I've talked about this a lot to some of the people building some of these things, and I am also convinced that HN like link aggregator type sites that are single community servers are better. There's one federating (Soon™) one called Brutalinks that looks pretty cool. I think the need to have multiple communities on one site is a unique need for centralized services like reddit, and something like categories and tags for different servers in a federation is the proper way to go.
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