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How the brain processes German and Arabic

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Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My native language is Portuguese and I'm currently learning German. The separable verbs are quite a challenge for me, especially in longer sentences. I'm used to simply read a verb and start picturing the sentence meaning in my mind, immediately. Whereas in German there's this need to keep the content in the working memory for possible supplementary info, and only at the end you can figure the meaning. Until the sent…

Obligatory Mark Twain on this, in case you or others haven't read his essay on learning German: "observe how far that verb is from the reader's base of operations; well, in a German newspaper they put their verb away over on the next page; and I have heard that sometimes after stringing along the exciting preliminaries and parentheses for a column or two, they get in a hurry and have to go to press without getting to…

Q: Why does past participle in German begin with "ge-"?

A: To give the speaker some time to remember what verb they had in mind 90 seconds ago when they started the sentence.

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#22
post #13

> Leihst du dir das Buch von deinem Lieblingsschriftsteller aus? Oh, that word! Even in slow motion I couldn’t spell it :)

It's a relatively simple compound word. Just two words actually. I hope this doesn't get auto corrected but how about Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaen (sorry no umlauts here and no fff from me :)). For the uninitiated: Schiff has 2 f. Fahrt has an f. But there a rule that if you combine words to make a new one you can't have a letter repeat more than twice. Papplakate? Pappe and Plakate. Schlaemmkreide? (ag…

well, technically it's a compound word of two words, one of which is also a compound word, so 3 words, really.

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#23
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My native language is Portuguese and I'm currently learning German. The separable verbs are quite a challenge for me, especially in longer sentences. I'm used to simply read a verb and start picturing the sentence meaning in my mind, immediately. Whereas in German there's this need to keep the content in the working memory for possible supplementary info, and only at the end you can figure the meaning. Until the sent…

Obligatory Mark Twain on this, in case you or others haven't read his essay on learning German: "observe how far that verb is from the reader's base of operations; well, in a German newspaper they put their verb away over on the next page; and I have heard that sometimes after stringing along the exciting preliminaries and parentheses for a column or two, they get in a hurry and have to go to press without getting to…

Haha thanks for bringing this quote.

That reminds me of a german friend listening to an announcement in a train station. He raised his hand signing he couldn't be disturbed and seemed to hold his breath during that fairly long speech. And at the end he told me "this language is so messed up, I had to listen it all up to the end to figure out whether we should wait some more minutes or leave and take a bus".

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny to see this actually. I never thought about it the way I read it from Mark Twain. Neither had I ever thought about English being a hard language because it has no regularity and every second word is an exception in how to pronounce it. But French eludes me. Written German of the times of Mark Twain is also quite different from today's. Of course the actual context dictates formality as well. Personally I c…

> Written German of the times of Mark Twain is also quite different from today's. The German language mutated less over the centuries than the English language. An educated native German speaker should be able to mostly understand the "Nibelungenlied" ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied ), a text written down in the mid 13th century, which is thus nearly 800 years old.

-Ish I guess :)

    Uns ist in alten mæren wunders vil geseit
    von helden lobebæren, von grôzer arebeit,
    von freuden, hôchgezîten, von weinen und von klagen,
    von küener recken strîten muget ír nu wunder hœren sagen
A "mær" (as Maer - imagine an a umlaut) does exist still but the word is so antiquated that I don't expect kids these days to know it. "wunders"? No idea. Something about "wonder"? "vil" sure, viel (a lot). "geseit". No idea. "seit" is that "sein" (to be)? Doesn't fit the rest of the sentence I guess. Definitely need to look that up.

"lobebæren". No damn idea whatsoever. Now "grôzer arebeit", sure that's "grosser Arbeit" but when I look at the "translation to German" (from the middle high German the original apparently is written in) it says it's "groesse Muehsahl". Close enough of course. Kind of like translating French word for word into German. It sort of makes sense but is just hopelessly old and weirdly structured but you can understand a lot of it. But it requires lots of brain power. Nothing that I can do while listening/talking, only while reading.

"hôchgezîten": Hochzeiten? Like weddings? Makes no sense. Maybe "Hochzeiten" as in 'high times'? Funnily same word different pronunciation depending on context :)

"recken" very old word. Again something kids these days probably have no idea about. I do but it's been a while I learned it all. "strîten" means streiten I guess which makes sense given the Recken, but without knowing what those are, not sure. "muget" Sounds like "muggle" but maybe "moeget"? So "moegte ihr". "nu wunder hœren sagen": "jetzt wunder hoeren sagen"? But what does that mean?

Some of this may not be a problem of "Shakespeare's times" vs. today but also "poem language" vs. "regular people language". I have trouble with poems.

I'd write it as this basically:

    Uns ist in alten Maeren viel Wunder 
    von Helden , von grosser Arbeit
    von Freuden, Hochzeiten, von Weinen und von Klagen,
    von kuehner Recken streiten moeget ihr Wunder hoeren sagen

Now even after looking up the two missing words, geseit is gesagt (to say) and lobebaeren just doesn't exist but was somehow translated to something I still would not be able to understand this if it was just read to me. I have to read it myself and actively think about it. On the other hand my sibling posts meandering whole paragraph sentence is very easily understandable.

On the other hand, here's a recipe for strengthening a wooden shield with leather in old English:

    take lether that ys half tannyd and drye hym and shave the flesshe syd
    and take glwu wt water and set yt over the fyere
    and melte yt wt water and then al hote ly yt a pone the leder on the flesshe syde
    and strawe ther on the powder of glasce bete yn a brasene morter ...
I'll stop there so we stay within the same 4 lines. But I had a much easier time reading that than the Niebelungenlied. And yes, my mother tongue is German :)

    take leather that is half tanned and dry him and shave the flesh side
    and take glue with water and set it over the fire
    and melt it with water and then while hot lie it upon the leather on the flesh side
    and strew thereon the powder of glass beaten in a  mortar
If anything, except for spelling mistakes like syd vs. syde, I think that's actually more consistent than modern English. I.e. I'd say syd for side is perfect. A y by itself makes the "why" sound. So syd is exactly how I'd write it if I was told to write it just from hearing the word once and knowing the alphabet. Why does it need an e at the end and why would we nowadays write it as side but not pronounce the e (like French sort of, just leave out the last 1-3 letters when pronouncing a word).

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#25
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this is such an incredible take-down, thank you for sharing! German is one of those languages where the spoken and written languages are incredibly distinct. I've felt that the written language requires massive intellect to pull apart as a non-native speaker, in comparison to the spoken language (once you adjust for pronunciation, etc.). The formalities of proper written German are inscrutable, this does a great…

Honestly, in my experience as a native German speaker spoken and written German are more similar to each other than spoken and written English. Just speak German as you would write it might sound a little bit more formal than is usual, but it won't cause you any trouble to err a little bit on the "too formal" side. > I've felt that the written language requires massive intellect to pull apart as a non-native speaker,…

> And no, I have no difficulties understanding this sentence.

This is what calls my attention most. During your language acquisition process, your brains may develop some specialized connections to handle such sentences. In Portuguese (and probably in most languages) it is possible to build such monstrosities -- and there are concrete examples which I won't recall now. However, one does that for literaly reasons, to sound overly sophisticated or intentionally difficult etc. It's definitely not a natural way to write, and it probably never happens spontaneously on spoken language. I can, very sporadically, grasp such long sentences in my language at the first pass, but it's always difficult and, even then, I usually reread just to make sure I really understood it.

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a relatively simple compound word. Just two words actually. I hope this doesn't get auto corrected but how about Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaen (sorry no umlauts here and no fff from me :)). For the uninitiated: Schiff has 2 f. Fahrt has an f. But there a rule that if you combine words to make a new one you can't have a letter repeat more than twice. Papplakate? Pappe and Plakate. Schlaemmkreide? (ag…

> For the uninitiated: Schiff has 2 f. Fahrt has an f. But there a rule that if you combine words to make a new one you can't have a letter repeat more than twice. This is a rule of the old spelling; it does not hold with respect to the new spelling rules. Of particular importance is because of this rule change, for some words many native speakers actually became aware that they pronounced some words wrongly. Old spe…

Yeah I don't do that. Never have, never will :P You are correct of course under the new rules (that I refused to ever learn, which is fine since I don't need to write German any longer :)

Next thing you tell me the new rules for "das" vs "dasz" (sorry no umlauts here but I guess you get what I mean) after a comma make sense. The reasoning was that the new rules will finally make it easier for people to know when to write "das" after a comma vs. "dasz" which you now write "dass". No they don't, they just make the exact same mistake! It was never about the szett. It's all about the "das" vs "dass", which given I have no umlauts here I always wrote as "dass" anyway, since you can replace an szett with a double s.

    Ich dachte mir schon, dass das Auto neu ist.
vs.

    Das Auto, das ich meine, ist neu.
With the old rules, it would have been exactly the same, just that dass would be dasz. Bonkers!

Now I will give you the Stillleben and the Pappplakate and Schifffahrt make sense in a way. But they went all out, didn't they? Let's just allow Schiff-Fahrt and Papp-Plakate and Still-Leben as well. Donau-Dampf-Schiff-Fahrts-Gesellschafts-Kapitaen FTW! :P

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a relatively simple compound word. Just two words actually. I hope this doesn't get auto corrected but how about Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaen (sorry no umlauts here and no fff from me :)). For the uninitiated: Schiff has 2 f. Fahrt has an f. But there a rule that if you combine words to make a new one you can't have a letter repeat more than twice. Papplakate? Pappe and Plakate. Schlaemmkreide? (ag…

well, technically it's a compound word of two words, one of which is also a compound word, so 3 words, really.

Touche!

Under the new rules, shouldn't we be allowed to write it as Lieblings-Schrift-Steller then? :P

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, in my experience as a native German speaker spoken and written German are more similar to each other than spoken and written English. Just speak German as you would write it might sound a little bit more formal than is usual, but it won't cause you any trouble to err a little bit on the "too formal" side. > I've felt that the written language requires massive intellect to pull apart as a non-native speaker,…

> And no, I have no difficulties understanding this sentence. This is what calls my attention most. During your language acquisition process, your brains may develop some specialized connections to handle such sentences. In Portuguese (and probably in most languages) it is possible to build such monstrosities -- and there are concrete examples which I won't recall now. However, one does that for literaly reasons, to…

The "trying to sound overly sophisticated" is a thing in German too, no worries :)

That said, personally I'm prone to this when writing. Even in English.

You've also tried. With this sentence, haven't you ;)

    I can, very sporadically, grasp such long sentences in my language at the first pass, but it's always difficult and, even then, I usually reread just to make sure I really understood it. 
With some thinking you can probably convert your entire post into a one sentence paragraph.

Re: How the brain processes German and Arabic

#30
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My native language is Portuguese and I'm currently learning German. The separable verbs are quite a challenge for me, especially in longer sentences. I'm used to simply read a verb and start picturing the sentence meaning in my mind, immediately. Whereas in German there's this need to keep the content in the working memory for possible supplementary info, and only at the end you can figure the meaning. Until the sent…

Obligatory Mark Twain on this, in case you or others haven't read his essay on learning German: "observe how far that verb is from the reader's base of operations; well, in a German newspaper they put their verb away over on the next page; and I have heard that sometimes after stringing along the exciting preliminaries and parentheses for a column or two, they get in a hurry and have to go to press without getting to…

Complete Japanese, SOV language, tangent: It's interesting watching real time thinking as the speaker navigates the final conjugation they intend to finish the sentence with. In a way I've always seen this as two things, 1) it gives the speaker time to think (along with their common filler words), and b) an option to change not only the tense of their sentence let alone compound it with more words, but the level of formality they wish to use on the fly that can also be tuned as they reach the end.
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