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North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

bbc.co.uk

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Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#71

Post by pertymcpert »

rqtwteye wrote: post #39
jraph wrote: post #37

I just can't understand what motivates so much violence towards a whole population. This is a mystery to me. Even if it's greed or something, how are you happy with yourself and sleep well when you are causing so much harm? I usually try hard to understand fellow human beings but I'm badly failing here.

It's not any different from capitalists having terrible working conditions in their factories. Humans have an enormous capacity to ignore others' suffering as long as they have a good life themselves. And somehow they always find a way to rationalize this.

Capitalism was the only thing keeping some of these NK people alive. Did you read the article?

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#72

Post by [deleted] »

Tade0 wrote: post #13

> They must attend their weekly Life Review Session, compulsory for every citizen. Here they admit to their mistakes and failures, whilst reporting the shortcomings of their neighbours. This sounds like something taken straight from https://elan.school/ . Or is it the other way around? My parents lived through communism and even during the worst days of the system it wasn't this bad - chiefly because it was impractic…

[deleted]

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#73

Post by arp242 »

leeter wrote: post #51
arp242 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really feel like we’ll look back at how we ignored it for so long shamefully One of the big problems has long been that North-Korea has a large network of artillery within shelling distance of Seoul. Now they also have rockets and nukes and stuff, but even without those any serious threat to NK would come with devastating cost of civilian lives in South-Korea. See e.g. [1], which estimates that "the DPRK could ca…

It's a complicated issue. Part of the problem is nobody really wants to fix it because the costs will be enormous. When and if the regime falls it's going to take tens of billions of dollars in aid to keep it from destabilizing South Korea. Not to mention the massive refugee crisis that will occur. I'm pretty sure that's one of the many reasons why China hasn't dealt with it. Because the vast majority of refugees wou…

> When and if the regime falls it's going to take tens of billions of dollars in aid to keep it from destabilizing South Korea.

On the other hand, the current costs of hostilities isn't free either as militaries don't pay for themselves; e.g. a 10% decrease in military spending for countries like South-Korea and Japan would save billions every year (right now, both are increasing spending).

I agree it's not a simple situation because there are 25 million mostly uneducated starving North-Koreans you've got to do something with, but in purely financial terms you're probably going to save money in the long run.

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#74

Post by CrackerNews »

jraph wrote: post #53
rqtwteye wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not any different from capitalists having terrible working conditions in their factories. Humans have an enormous capacity to ignore others' suffering as long as they have a good life themselves. And somehow they always find a way to rationalize this.

> It's not any different from capitalists having terrible working conditions in their factories Is it not, really? Have we read the same article? I hate capitalism, and I hate many consequences it has including horrible working conditions for some workers, sharp inequalities, terrible incentives like preferring to produce stuff in countries with terrible laws because it's cheaper and therefore promoting horrible work…

Capitalism is best described as both progressive to the past and regressive to a better future it prevents. The tension of NK running a revolutionary and ideological state and surviving in global geopolitics led them down this path. The more ideological would see this as biding their time for their enemies to collapse under the weight of their contradictions. However, the people in this article want to live a better world now. Unfortunately, the world and realpolitik is messier than fulfilling human desires.

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#75

Post by pydry »

leeter wrote: post #51
arp242 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really feel like we’ll look back at how we ignored it for so long shamefully One of the big problems has long been that North-Korea has a large network of artillery within shelling distance of Seoul. Now they also have rockets and nukes and stuff, but even without those any serious threat to NK would come with devastating cost of civilian lives in South-Korea. See e.g. [1], which estimates that "the DPRK could ca…

It's a complicated issue. Part of the problem is nobody really wants to fix it because the costs will be enormous. When and if the regime falls it's going to take tens of billions of dollars in aid to keep it from destabilizing South Korea. Not to mention the massive refugee crisis that will occur. I'm pretty sure that's one of the many reasons why China hasn't dealt with it. Because the vast majority of refugees wou…

The regime is very stable - contrary to the impression western media imparts. It could easily continue for another 50 years.

Part of the problem is that threatening North Korea plays into the hands of the Kims - it makes the "strongman leader" more attractive.

Invading Iraq and tearing Libya to pieces really didn't help.

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#77

Post by CrackerNews »

pertymcpert wrote: post #71
rqtwteye wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not any different from capitalists having terrible working conditions in their factories. Humans have an enormous capacity to ignore others' suffering as long as they have a good life themselves. And somehow they always find a way to rationalize this.

Capitalism was the only thing keeping some of these NK people alive. Did you read the article?

I think the article has mistaken markets, trade, and side hustles for capitalism. These things existed before capitalism and may still exist after. Capitalism is private ownership over the means of production, and I am not sure how much ownership common people can have in a country that owns everything.

What is present here is that NK is supposedly centrally planning the economy, but there are gaps which are filled by the black markets.

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#78

Post by ksherlock »

kneebonian wrote: post #63
ksherlock wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wanted nuclear bombs in NK and China.

I maintain that the second greatest mistake the US ever made was not giving McArthur the bombs he wanted.

What's your number one mistake then? Not nuking Russia in 1945 or asking Stalin to help out in Asia?

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#79

Post by pydry »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #17

North Korea runs contrary to my intuition about dictators. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of regicide, but most dictatorships, even among the most horrific, represent some sort of misguided attempt at benevolance. Killing dissidents? Sure, they're getting in the way of your utopian plan. Failed economic plans that lead to famine? Well, the idea had some justification, better pivot to avoid further harm. Hell…

>North Korea's leadership doesn't seem to have any interest at all in the wellbeing of the populace.

It's a manufactured impression.

Western oligarchy controlled media doesnt like to talk about how they pay $0 for college and medical care. They focus exclusively on the prison camps, etc.

North Koreans are fed an impression of America that centers around stuff like Guantanamo bay, Abu ghraib, medical bankruptcies and the unfair cost of college. I'm sure many are equally perplexed about why Americans haven't yet "risen up".

Re: North Koreans speak secretly to BBC from inside closed country

#80

Post by glimshe »

graypegg wrote: post #9

I think when looking back through history, the continued torture of the entire North Korean population is going to be one of the most tragic events of the 21st century. Despite the regime originating earlier, it feels to be most tragic now; long after any maligned geopolitical reason for the regime to exist has since disappeared. It’s something we don’t think about often currently, because it’s almost become a joke.…

Not only 21st century. While we've seen brutal dictatorships in the past, we've never seen one with access to 21st century technology to further their goals. The old dictatorships could only be so efficient, but the scale and sophistication of North Korea's actions is unprecedented.

Unfortunately, it's not as much ignoring as it is the few options available. If there is one country that can do something about it, that would be China - they currently prop the regime. But I wouldn't hold my breath that China, also one of the most immoral regimes in history, would care about what North Korea is doing as long as it keeps bothering the US.

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